Posted on 08/26/2004 4:36:06 PM PDT by Shermy
PORTLAND, Ore. - A swiftboat crewman decorated in the 1969 Vietnam incident where John Kerry (news - web sites) won a Bronze Star says not only did they come under enemy fire but also that his own boat commander, who has challenged the official account, was too distracted to notice the gunfire.
Retired Chief Petty Officer Robert E. Lambert, of Central Point, Ore., got a Bronze Star for pulling his boat commander — Lt. Larry Thurlow — out of the Bay Hap River on March 13, 1969. Thurlow had jumped onto another swiftboat to aid sailors wounded by a mine explosion but fell off when the out-of-control boat ran aground.
Thurlow, who has been prominent among a group of veterans challenging the Democratic presidential candidate's record, has said there was no enemy fire during the incident. Lambert, however, supports the Navy account that says all five swiftboats in the task force "came under small arms and automatic weapon fire from the river banks" when the mine detonated.
"I thought we were under fire, I believed we were under fire," Lambert said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press.
"Thurlow was far too distracted with rescue efforts to even realize he was under fire. He was concentrating on trying to save lives."
The anti-Kerry group, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, has been running television ads challenging the Navy account of the boats being under fire. Kerry has condemned the ads as a Republican smear campaign.
A career military man, Lambert is no fan of Kerry's either. He doesn't like Kerry's post-Vietnam anti-war activity and doesn't plan to vote for him.
"I don't like the man himself," Lambert said, "but I think what happened happened, and he was there."
A March 1969 Navy report located by The Associated Press this week supports Lambert's version. The report twice mentions the incident and both times calls it "an enemy initiated firefight" that included automatic weapons fire and underwater mines used against a group of five boats that included Kerry's.
Kerry's Bronze Star was awarded for his pulling Special Forces Lt. Jim Rassmann, who had been blown off the boat, out of the river. Rassmann, who is retired and lives in Florence, Ore., has said repeatedly that the boats were under fire, as have other witnesses. Lambert didn't see that rescue because Kerry was farther down the river and "I was busy pulling my own boat officer (Thurlow) out of the water."
Thurlow could not be reached for comment about Lambert's recollections.
But speaking for the Swift Boat Veterans group, Van Odell, who was in the task force that day, remembers it differently from Lambert.
"When they're firing, you can hear the rounds hit the boat or buzz by your head. There was none of that," he said in a telephone interview from Katy, Texas, where he lives.
Lambert said the swiftboats were on their way out of the river when a mine exploded under one, PCF-3.
"When they blew the 3-boat, everyone opened up on the banks with everything they had," he said. "That was the normal procedure. When they came after you, they came after you. Somebody on shore blew that mine."
"There was always a firefight" after a mine detonation, he said.
"Kerry was out in front of us, on down the river. He had to come back up the river to get to us."
Lambert retired in 1978 as a chief petty officer with 22 years of service and three tours in Vietnam. He does not remember ever meeting Kerry.
Skipper Thurlow was too distracted for the entire hour and a half they were there to notice that he was being shot at.
But watch the sudden interest by the MSM to blow this minor detail into a full blown SBV "flip-flop" even though the essential story elements hold up. No way is this the same scale as XMAS in Cambodia.
Let the SBV dispute Kerry's account with their book, but to keep hammering on this is going to cause nothing but trouble for republicans and Bush.
Only if the SBV have irrefutable POOF should they continue this push, otherwise get out of the eye of the campaign.
If you put this guy under oath, I'm confident he would testify he doesn't know one way or the other if there was enemy fire.
The MSM got him to say what they wanted, at the behest of the Kerry Campaign. Now they will run with it.
"thought" and "believed" does not mean you were
According to the Swiftie's account, after the mine detonated, the other boats sprayed the shore with machine gun fire. They ceased firing when they realized that there was no return fire.
I can believe that there was always a lot of outgoing fire after a mine detonation. It probably happened every time there was a loud unexpected noise while on patrol in Indian Country.
Outgoing fire alone does not constitute a "firefight".
Yes, but this guy got a bronze star for the incident, based on the report Kerry apparently wrote. So he has an interest in the matter. But, he doesn't appear to have a specific recollection of it.
Timeline : The end of Kerry's tour in Vietnam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1198486/posts
13 Mar 1969 - Five Swift Boats are sent to raid a Vietcong village: Kerry PCF-94, Droz PCF-43, Pees PCF-3, Chenoweth PCF-23, and Thurlow PCF-51. Special Forces Lieutenant Rassman goes along for the ride on Kerry's boat. They depart the LST anchored offshore at 7:30 am, cruise about 11 miles up the Bay Hap River, then about 3 miles up the Dong Cung Canal, and get to the village at 8:15 am.
1. The village is deserted. As they are returning to the boat, Kerry and Rassmann decide to blow up a five-ton rice bin. They climb on top of the huge pile and dig a hole in the rice. On the count of three, they toss their grenades into the hole and run. Kerry doesn't run fast enough. He gets hit in the butt by some pieces of rice.
2. As the five boats are returning down the Bay Hap River, they come to a fishing net stretched across the middle of the river. As PCF-94 is going around the fishing net to the right and PCF-3 is going around it to the left, a mine explodes under PCF-3.
3. Simultaneously: (a) Kerry goes to full throttle, which causes Rassmann to fall overboard, and flees down the river with all his guns firing at the shore, and (b) the other three boats go to help PCF-3 with all their guns firing at the shore.
4. After 40 seconds, PCF-43, PCF-23 and PCF-51 cease fire, but Kerry keeps on firing and fleeing down the river.
5. PCF-43, PCF-23 and PCF-51 work together to rescue the crew of PCF-3 and keep PCF-3 from sinking.
6. Kerry finally turns around, comes back, and fishes Rassmann out of the water.
7. As PCF 23 is leaving the area to take the three seriously injured men from PCF-3 to the Coast Guard cutter offshore, Kerry jumps in PCF-23 and goes with them.
8. PCF-94 (without Kerry) tows the badly damaged PCF-3.
9. Kerry writes the after-action report that portrays him as a hero. He does not mention the fact that he abandoned the other boats and fled from what he thought was a battle, or that he abandoned his own boat and rode home with the wounded.
13-17 March 1969
1. Kerry's after-action report is used to request that he be awarded the Bronze Star and his third Purple Heart.
THE KERRY DIARIES
"A cocky feeling of invincibility accompanied us up the Long Tau shipping channel because we hadn't been shot at yet, and Americans at war who haven't been shot at are allowed to be cocky," wrote Mr. Kerry, according the book "Tour of Duty" by friendly biographer Douglas Brinkley.
With all guns blazing on the three boats that didn't bug out, I can understand someone thinking they might be under fire for a while. Someone here I believe has pointed out that even if there was some initial fire, it's not likely that there was any when Kerry finally returned to pull out Rassmann. After all, Kerry claims that he was under fire for 5 km, downstream then back up to get Rassmann. Odell claims that the three boats that didn't bug out fired for maybe 30 or 60 seconds, then the boats spent about 90 minutes salvaging PCF-3 during which time there was obviously no enemy fire. I doubt that Quick John could have covered 10 km in less than a minute--he'd have to be traveling at 370 mph!
My understanding of the damage report is that Kerrys boat suffered a couple of broken windows and a chipped and bent propeller.
Speaking from personal watercraft experience, propellers get chipped and bent due to striking hard stationary objects.
As the metal boat twisted and flexed from striking the fishing weir, I'm not surprised that glass windows would pop. If Kerry did suffer a bleeding wound that day, my guess is it's most likely due to broken glass.
For most of the incident, Kerry was inside the cabin and the least exposed of the crew. As I recall, there was no report of Kerry's boat being holed or taking on water. It certainly would be an interesting mine explosion that threw shrapnel up out of the water and then back down in a twisting turning manner to strike Kerry and Kerry alone inside the boats cabin.
Obviously, he doesn't recall it specifically, if you read his statements.
I would think that he would recall it well since he was the eyewitness listed for at least one (and probably all) of the Bronze Stars awarded that day (kerry's, Thurlow's and his own).
Had he not been the eyewitness who confirmed the circumstances of the incident, I could easily accept faulty/fuzzy recall for the vagueness. As it is, I have a hard time believing it.
It certainly would be an interesting mine explosion that didn't hole the boat yet threw shrapnel up out of the water and then back down in a twisting turning manner to strike Kerry and Kerry alone inside the boats cabin.
He gunned his engine (while fleeing like a coward away from what he believed to be enemy fire upon hearing the mine detionation on Boat #3) and struck an underwater obstacle
Good info, thanks.
According to O'Neill, this damage, or wear, was reported by Kerry in "Tour" to have happened before March 13.
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