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Are Catholic lay apostolates dangerous/advisable?
24/08/2004 | Mike Duke

Posted on 08/24/2004 6:43:33 AM PDT by Mike Duke

Bud MacFarlane Jr. recently left his wife Bai and four young children after enough years of marriage to have four young children. He ran the Catholicity www.catholicity.com website and wrote books and multiple articles about the importance of good solid Catholic marriages.

Deal Hudson retired his position as editor of CRISIS a conservative Catholic magazine over an alleged teacher/student sexual scandal back in 1994, well documented on the Internet and Free Republic.

Despite paying $30,000 to the 18 year old student in compensation back in 1995 (with a silence clause) he went on to write articles like this.

http://www.catholicity.com/commentary/hudson/collegesurvey.html

entitled, Are Your Kids Safe In A Catholic College?


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: budmacfarlane; dealhudson; hypocrites; judgment; scandal
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Is it the “power” of lay-apostolates in our age of the Internet that attracts spiritually weak and deeply flawed people? Do these people secretly hope that by instructing others how to grow in their faith they can overcome their own weaknesses?

In the past the Church would have dominated the Internet and taken it over as a brilliant tool for global evangelization. Excellent Catholic websites would have been built by techno savvy Monks and Nuns, the Jesuits would have been spiritual kings of the dot.org world. We have one such media savvy and wonderful nun today, Mother Angelica, but Vatican 2 has destroyed the clergy and what is left doesn't have the guts or gumption to do much more than pick up their e-mails. The laity has stepped in, to fill the gap, but therein lies the danger because they are not spiritually prepared to make a career out of an apostolate and when they go wrong there is nothing to curb their excess.

Whereas the clergy in the past were answerable to some temporal power, the laity are not. Today any convert or revert with a penny catechism and a web-connection is suddenly a theologian or moralist. This gives religious cynics plenty of ammunition when these people fall in the spectacular way that both Bud and Deal have.

Do the pros of lay-apostolates outweigh the cons?

1 posted on 08/24/2004 6:43:34 AM PDT by Mike Duke
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To: Mike Duke

According to the Bible, we are all of the priesthood. A degree or ordination is a man-based idea. The gift of teaching comes from the Spirit, not a school.

But this thread merely focuses on the Christian's obligation to test all things in light of Scripture and nothing else.

Everything you read or teacher you hear -- no matter what their "pedigree" -- should be held to the same Biblical standard. If they teach something contrary to God's Holy Word, they are false teachers and should be ignored.

So these lay teachers, priests, etc. should have all they teach held to these same standards.

In Christian circles, we have the same problem... A Christian bookstore is about the most dangerous place to be, because all the dangers are hidden, disguised as things that are "good". And they've infected the Body.


2 posted on 08/24/2004 6:55:32 AM PDT by HawkeyeLonewolf (Christian First, American Second (Conservative Anti-Smoker))
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To: Mike Duke
Is it the "power" of lay-apostolates in our age of the Internet that attracts spiritually weak and deeply flawed people? Do these people secretly hope that by instructing others how to grow in their faith they can overcome their own weaknesses?

What makes you think the clergy are any different? They're all human.

3 posted on 08/24/2004 6:57:55 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: malakhi

Some more human than others as proven by the scandals in the Church. It is inevitable that the laity will take over as the size of the Priesthood diminishes. We have no other choice short of ordaining married men who wish to be Priests.


4 posted on 08/24/2004 7:02:32 AM PDT by mrbillxx (Conservatives Think. Liberals Feel.)
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To: HawkeyeLonewolf
In Christian circles, we have the same problem...

Christian as distinct from Catholic ?

5 posted on 08/24/2004 7:11:45 AM PDT by Sam the Sham
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To: Mike Duke
Is it the “power” of lay-apostolates in our age of the Internet that attracts spiritually weak and deeply flawed people?

Well, since paying off abuse victims in exchange for a promise to keep silent about the abuse, is a practice widely engaged in by the Catholic priesthood and hierarchy, I hardly think that its use by a lay person constitutes an indictment against lay apostolates. Hudson was just doing what he learned by example from the priesthood.

6 posted on 08/24/2004 7:37:20 AM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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To: Mike Duke

I think that's a rather odd conclusion to draw from these unfortunate situations. To me, the lesson is that any time a married man is involved in an activity - professional, religious, charitable, or political - that takes him away from his family both physically and spiritually, then he is exposed to enormous temptations. Moreover, a man in that situation is encouraged by the larger society to continue putting other things ahead of his family, while offering him "escape" through easy divorce and remarriage (rinse, repeat).

My heart breaks for the McFarlanes' young children, but the cause would be the same personal and societal sinfulness if Bud had been a successful used car dealer, rather than an evangelist.

Men (and sometimes women) of all religious or secular types fall into sin. Priests and nuns are just as human as lay men and women; although they don't have spouses and children to betray, they are just as likely to commit scandalous acts ... in the past, as well as today. Any human endeavor is going to be flawed, period.


7 posted on 08/24/2004 7:40:15 AM PDT by Tax-chick (The only thing we know about life is that we aren't going to get out of it alive.)
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To: malakhi
What makes you think the clergy are any different? They're all human.

That's the bottom line. We're all sinners.

8 posted on 08/24/2004 7:41:51 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Mike Duke
It takes a great deal of spiritual maturity to attend to the primary duties that your state of life requires. Married women with small children are really limited in what they can do for the church, retired folks have many more options. I have seen a lot of women forget their real responsibilities to spend loads of time in parish ministries and bustle about and over-volunteer for things and getting into parish "politics" while neglecting their families.

If you think nuns and priests would be any better than the laity, you ought to attend Bible study run by some of the liberal CINOs. The real difference is clergy have no family obligations so they can devote themselves full time to the Lord's work.

The virtues of humility (not using a ministry to puff up your pride) and discernment (is that what God wants me to do or is this what I want to do?) are what are needed. I don't see that as a laity v religious issue, it's a "is this my will or God's?" issue. I truly believe many nuns teaching in colleges and running seminars are actually called to teach in parish elementary schools, but turn up their noses because it doesn't stroke their egos. The Blessed Mother is a great example of humility: she wasn't a CEO, didn't run an abbey, never had a title, she simply did what God wanted her to do, and all her spiritual glory comes from that humility.

9 posted on 08/24/2004 8:13:46 AM PDT by justanotherfreeper
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To: justanotherfreeper

Oooh, good post!


10 posted on 08/24/2004 8:23:01 AM PDT by Tax-chick (The only thing we know about life is that we aren't going to get out of it alive.)
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To: mrbillxx
We have no other choice short of ordaining married men who wish to be Priests.

That's right out of the CINO VOTF Talking Points Handbook.

11 posted on 08/24/2004 8:34:58 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: Mike Duke
Deal Hudson retired his position as editor of CRISIS a conservative Catholic magazine over an alleged teacher/student sexual scandal back in 1994, well documented on the Internet and Free Republic.

Source? Hudson resigned as Chair of the Republican National Committee's "Catholic Outreach", not as editor of Crisis, where he is the publisher, not the editor, unless you know something we don't. There's been no report of retirement either.

12 posted on 08/24/2004 8:43:00 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: Mike Duke

Only perfect people should ever teach anybody anything.

/sarcasm


13 posted on 08/24/2004 8:48:39 AM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: GovernmentShrinker

Can we assume that Hudson used his own $30,000 rather than money we contributed for another cause?


14 posted on 08/24/2004 8:56:50 AM PDT by 11x62
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To: HawkeyeLonewolf
A degree or ordination is a man-based idea.

Incorrect. Better brush up on your private interpretation and "knowledge" of Scripture.

"For this cause I left thee in Crete: that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting and shouldest ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee:" Titus 1:5

"And when they had ordained to them priests in every church and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, in whom they believed." Acts 14:22

"For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in the things that appertain to God, that he may offer up gifts and sacrifices for sins:" Hebrews 5:1

15 posted on 08/24/2004 9:08:45 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: Mike Duke
Question: Are there as many scandals involving lay persons as there are involving priests?

Not bashing here. Just pointing out that sin is a disease all humans share.

When such scandals occur, the church should behave in the manner prescribed by scripture. But as long as there are people in churches, churches will not be free of scandals.

16 posted on 08/24/2004 9:11:53 AM PDT by MEGoody (Flush the Johns - vote Bush/Cheney 04)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

But that is not what is done today, so my point still stands.

I meant ordination as it is done today -- not the separation of those with the gifts of pastoring or evangelism. But the end result is still the same.

All believers are of the priesthood and their study and sharing of God's truth is what matters -- not what university they attend, etc.


17 posted on 08/24/2004 9:13:04 AM PDT by HawkeyeLonewolf (Christian First, American Second (Conservative Anti-Smoker))
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To: 11x62

I wouldn't assume that. If he was taking a salary from this "conservative Catholic magazine", then his personal funds were taken from people who thought they were contributing money and/or paying subscription fees to support a conservative Catholic publication -- not to help the editor pay hush money to his victims.


18 posted on 08/24/2004 9:16:58 AM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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To: Mike Duke

As a person whose entire family was over-involved in an approved "lay movement" in the Church (with similar stories from LOTS of other "orthodox" Catholics), I can say categorically that until the Church returns to teaching about our individual vocations and "states in life" (married father with 5 living children, whose wife homeschools), then identify ourselves with our careers, this will continue to happen. We must work on our own holiness, then our spouse and children, THEN others. Not a whole lot of time for the rest. Catholic apostolates, as attractive as they are, are not your 9 to 5 job, and often do not yield enough $ for a large family. It is great to "rely on God's providence," but he also gave us brains.

For instance, I am 40 years old, have been working in corporate America my whole life (except for a brief attempt at owning my own business based on "my dream") and have just adequate enough $ to survive upon. My wife used to work when we were married 20 years ago, and she used to make mor $ than me until 12 years ago. Now, she is a full-time mother and homeschools my children. I "bring home the bacon" so to speak. Through additional studies for the past 4 years, I have now earned a Bachelor's in Theology from a reputable Catholic college/seminary. What can I do with that? I am now qualified to make half of what I do at my current career. I'd love to do it, but... What is my state in life? Provide for my wife and children and sacrifice for them as Christ sacrificed His life, and does so at every Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

I think we should not condemn Hudson nor McFarlane. We need to remove our own planks and pray the good Lord saves us from similar fates.


19 posted on 08/24/2004 9:23:34 AM PDT by Mershon
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To: HawkeyeLonewolf
But that is not what is done today, so my point still stands.

Incorrect, again. You're 0-2. Better quit before that hole you've dug gets any deeper and review:

"Understanding this first: That no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation." 2 Peter 1:20

and

"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:16

Thanks for playing.

Johnny , tell our losing player what parting gifts he'll be receiving.

20 posted on 08/24/2004 9:34:38 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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