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Posted on 08/21/2004 8:04:49 AM PDT by CT
Monday, August 16, 2004
SEALs & Swift boats
Apparently, the latest version of Kerry's Cambodia Chronicles includes the insertion of Navy SEALs by Swift boat into Cambodia in the early part of 1969. Well, I am a former Navy SEAL that served in the 1990s, my father in law is a former SEAL and he served in the Mekong Delta in Vietnam in 1970. I spoke with him about the likelihood that this story could be correct. My contention was that Swift boats were too large to be routinely used as an insertion platform for SEALs.
SEALs typically used the Medium SEAL Support Craft (MSSC) or the LSSC. My dad's platoon, had one of each assigned. These boats were designed by SEALs and specially built for the Teams to use on clandestine riverine insertions at night of usually no more than 8 operators. Swift boats operated in groups as independent entities, and not as insertion/extraction platforms for small units.
Jim Rassman's ODA was probably on there because SF A teams don't have organic boat assets and were using the Swifties because they had no other means of getting where they needed to go. Also, it is my understanding that the engagement with Kerry getting the Bronze Star took place during the day, which leads me to believe the insertion mission was either a large infantry force led by the SF guys, or a civic action type mission for which SF is well known.
Waterborne infiltrations done illegally into a "neutral" country if performed would be done by small groups of operators (less than 8), at night, in a small tributary, by a boat with a very shallow draft and jacuzzi, not propeller drive. To do otherwise, would be ridiculous.
SEALs also did not trust anyone outside of their immediate peer group. They developed their own intel by snatching high ranking VC out of their beds in the middle of the night. They did not share this info outside the platoon, boat guys, and Seawolves helo crews (close fire support assets). They learned early on that passing intel up the chain was a sure way to be compromised on future operations.
In order to get permission to conduct an illegal incursion into Cambodia by Swift boat the following must occur: 1. Extremely fresh intel of a high value target (think U.S. POW, or VC chieftain). 2. Take that intel outside the group and up to intel at a higher level (risking compromise) in order to obtain boat support from the Swifties to go into Cambodia. That is extremely unlikely to the point of absurdity.
Furthermore, neither myself or my father in law knows anyone who was inserted anywhere by a Swift boat during Vietnam. It just wasn't done. It wasn't something SEALs wanted, and it wasn't something Swifties did.
Bottom Line......Kerry is a liar.
posted by Matthew Heidt @ 14:00
22 Comments:
At 15:17, Dan Patterson said...
Oh HELL yes!
The nail is hit squarely upon the head. None of the Kerry tale passes the smell test: How many barstool-warriors have we come upon that embellish and stretch the truth of their exploits beyond the breaking point? Usually we give these guys a wide berth and let them have their mostly harmless fantasy. But most guys don't hold the reigns of power and most guys aren't responsible for deploying the US military. And while most guys like that might be living in an alcoholic delusion, they aren't delusional US Presidents nor are they delusional US Senators.
This clown is not just embarassing, he is dangerous. Thanks to you--Hugh Hewitt, Captain's Quarters, A Collection of Thoughts, Just One Minute, and many others--for spreading the story.
Dan Patterson
Winston-Salem, NC
At 15:21, Alec Rawls said... Insertion lie not proven yet, but you are adding weight to the expectation. Welcome to the blogosphere good buddy.
At 15:42, Robert Dawson said... Good luck and thanks for your service. Glad you can keep serving this country by debunking a fallacy being pushed for political purposes. I'm going to link to you on my blog because you seem to have the "bottom line" on why he just cannot possibly be telling the truth.
At 15:49, PBRMan said...
I am totally convinced that Kerry is lying about this and other matters. However, while I have no knowledge about Swift operations (if any) with SEALs, I can tell you that I personally inserted and retracted SEAL ambush teams in the delta from a PBR at least a dozen times from 9/67 to 9/68. I did these both on the Co Chien River, operating out of Vinh Long, and on the Bassac out of Binh Thuy.
At 16:00, Richard said...
Matthew, a quick question if that's ok. Since there are numerous "Navy SEALS" running around out there, is it possible for you to let folks know what BUD/S class you graduated from and/or which Teams you served with?
At 16:36, thegreatsatan said...
class 179 hooyah!
sadly, I didn't make it through but have fond memories of the grinder.
on topic though, you are correct and as you know most people in SBU know as well that swiftboats were ill suited for many portions of the Mekong area, thats why the flat bottom PBR's were used (no screw to get tangled up as well). Swiftboats were loud and poorly suited for covert usage in my view. I'm sure Dick Marcinko and others of his era could shed more light on this as well.
At 16:43, www.brightwinger.com/blogs said... As a SEAL how likely is it that a CIA operative would give Kerry part of his camouflage (his hat) just as he is about to embark on a clandestine mission into enemy territory?
Brightwinger
At 18:03, pst314 said...
Eye-opening observations. Thank you, and thank you for your service, sir.
At 19:10, Jules said...
Thank you for posting! I love it when military members/vets write, it isn't the same hearing information from people who didn't "live" the stuff they are talking about. Thank you again sir, for your service and for taking time to get credible information onto the 'net.
At 02:01, Don Stout said...
Matthew, thank you for your service!
***this guy certainly has a glass jaw***
but a LONG glass jaw!
You're saying that the Democratic party is 100% Communist?? That's about as true as saying the Republican party is neo-Nazi. I've been voting since 1964; the worst vote I've cast was for Richard Nixon in 1968, being misled by his lies proclaiming his "plan" about ending the war in Vietnam. Humphrey was also for continuing the war, so there wasn't much of a choice in 1968.The change in the Democratic party in 1972 was a reaction to the war and was inevitable.
Judging from the anti-Kerry venom I read in some of the posts, I find that difficult to believe.
No. Many of it most prominent leaders. And not communist exactly.
How about this: Left enough that they would have been monitored by the FBI in earlier days.
1. Castro-buddy Maxine Waters.
2. Osama-lover Patty Murray
3. Bagdadh-Jim McDermot.
4. Cynthia 'Bush-knew' McKinney
5. Teddy 'swimmer' Kennedy (and I did admire JFK).
6. Hillary red-guard Clinton.
7. The entire democrat-socialist or social-democrat caucus.
Is that enough examples? They are just random.
First, thanks for your service and helping to save that pilot.
Second, thanks for your help here re this plane.
The rural south-central Missouri county I live in is staunch Republican. It's truly a one party system, as many of the county offices go uncontested. I know of no Democrats being elected here in the 33 years I've lived here. Elections are decided in the primaries. People I've met vote Republican because their Daddy, Grandaddy and Great Grandaddy voted that way and they will too; no regard is given to the issues or candidates.
I feel you're confusing liberalism with radicalism. Check Websters for the definition of "communism". By your definition of the Democratic Party, the Republican Party's prominent leaders are "reactionary", which is not true; they are mostly "conservative".
I never cared much for the Kennedys.
Kerry Is Legend In His Own Mind - just like Walter Mitty.
The vast majority of users of this site would pull the "R" lever no matter who was running for President on the Republican ticket. Right?
Wrong.
One mentioned Arlen 'Scottish Law' Spectator (sic), and Bryant no disrespect - as I don't know where you live (I wish Freepers would at LEAST fill in what State they live in on their profile) - but Rudy Giuliani would GO DOWN IN FLAMES on a national ticket.
Rudy could and is only considered a 'conservative' in places like New York or Kalifornia. Heck he isn't even a 'moderate' . He is a RINO; aka a liberal gun-grabbing, pro-abortion, statist. Just because he is 'tough on crime' (or was) and has an 'R' after his name don't mean squat. And his loss would be of epic proportions and maybe even equal Mondale's or McGovern's.
I seem to remember that the shooter was the chief of police of Saigon and that the shootee was a captured viet cong guerilla that just killed a south vietnamese captain and the captains wife and daughter. I think this happened during the TET offensive.
Can anybody confirm this?
If there was one group of vets that I wouldn't want PO'd at me it would be the Graduates from BUD who wear the trident and pistol. A fellow could get hurt doing that.
"Bottom Line......Kerry is a liar."
That'll work...
redrock
45 - "First, thanks for your service and helping to save that pilot. "
Thankyou.
That was one of numbers I in coordination with others saved. That particular time, I was able to put all the disparate pieces together in a timely manner, and we all had a happy ending.
Unfortunately, That was not always the case, and sometimes the 'game' was over before it even started.
Too many names on that black wall hole in the ground, some of which I couldn't keep off, no matter what I tried.
Thanks for the Gridley update; shows Kerry has a small talent for fabricating Navy SOP & Regs. BTW, Danang was not a liberty port. Liberty was granted once in '70 or '71 for a period of about 2 weeks then shut down again. During that period I went once. Danang City was off limits to all military personnel not on official duty. If Kerry had a beer there, it would have to have been in a service club. Danang 69-71.
I'm sure that our downed pilots knew that you and your peers did the best and often impossible to get them out alive.
The air rescue operations of our Air Force, Navy, Marines and Army have been an real untold story of valor.
I think that you may be right.
Which means he was doing the exact same thing he's accusing O'Neill & SBVT of doing: Testifying about somebody without having served on the same "boat" with them.
The gentleman in the photo is or was (he died a year or two ago) Gen. Loc Loan (Chief of Saigon Police ) and the VC cadre he shot was sent to kill HIM and HIS FAMILY.
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