Posted on 08/18/2004 11:55:25 PM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Military records appear to contradict claims by a vocal critic of Sen. John Kerry that the Democratic presidential candidate lied about coming under gunfire during a mission in Vietnam, according to The Washington Post.
The newly obtained records of Larry Thurlow show that he, like Kerry, won a Bronze Star for the same engagement and that Thurlow's citation said he came under "constant small arms fire,'' the newspaper reported Thursday.
Thurlow, also like Kerry, commanded a Navy Swift boat during the war. Thurlow swore in an affidavit last month that Kerry was "not under fire'' when he rescued Lt. James Rassmann from the Bay Hap River.
Thurlow's records, obtained by the Post under the Freedom of Information Act, include references to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire'' directed at all five boats in the flotilla that day. In his Bronze Star citation, Thurlow is praised for helping a damaged Swift boat "despite enemy bullets flying about him.''
Thurlow is a leading member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a public advocacy group of Vietnam veterans who have aired a television advertisement attacking Kerry's war record.
Kerry has described how his boat came under fire from the river banks after a mine explosion disabled another U.S. Swift boat. Kerry and members of his crew say the firing continued as Kerry leaned over to fish out Rassman, who was blown overboard in another explosion.
Thurlow described Kerry's Bronze Star citation as "totally fabricated,'' saying "I never heard a shot.''
Thurlow, a registered Republican, said he is angry with Kerry for his antiwar activities after his return to the United States, especially his claim that U.S. troops committed war crimes with the knowledge of their officers up the chain of command.
Thurlow told the Post that he got the award for helping to rescue the boat that was mined.
"This casts doubt on anybody's awards,'' he said. "It is sickening and disgusting.''
He said he believed his award would be fraudulent if it was based on coming under enemy fire.
"We weren't under fire,'' he insisted.
Thurlow said he lost his Bronze Star citation more than 20 years ago. He said he would not authorize release of his military records because he feared the Kerry campaign would discredit him.
Members of Kerry's crew have said Kerry is telling the truth. Rassman said he has vivid memories of enemies firing at him from both banks.
AP-ES-08-19-04 0047EDT
glad to see someone is taking the initative to get kerry's military records.
Oh wait, they're going after the military records of kerry critics.
Nevermind.
Here is prior POST with expert Washington Compost / DNC spin disection.
Warning: this LINK to enemy territory (checkpoint Kerry)
Thanks for the LINK.
Can you give us the condensed version?
Last month, Thurlow swore in an affidavit that Kerry was "not under fire" when he fished Lt. James Rassmann out of the water. He described Kerry's Bronze Star citation, which says that all units involved came under "small arms and automatic weapons fire," as "totally fabricated."
"I never heard a shot," Thurlow said in his affidavit, which was released by Swift Boats Veterans for Truth. The group claims the backing of more than 250 Vietnam veterans, including a majority of Kerry's fellow boat commanders.
A document recommending Thurlow for the Bronze Star noted that all his actions "took place under constant enemy small arms fire which LTJG THURLOW completely ignored in providing immediate assistance" to the disabled boat and its crew. The citation states that all other units in the flotilla also came under fire.
"It's like a Hollywood presentation here, which wasn't the case," Thurlow said last night after being read the full text of his Bronze Star citation. "My personal feeling was always that I got the award for coming to the rescue of the boat that was mined. This casts doubt on anybody's awards. It is sickening and disgusting."
Thurlow said he would consider his award "fraudulent" if coming under enemy fire was the basis for it. "I am here to state that we weren't under fire," he said. He speculated that Kerry could have been the source of at least some of the language used in the citation.
First, it is really interesting that the Washington Post reporter refers to "a document" but does not identify it. Some reference to identify the document, at least the name of it, would be routine in a newspaper article. Better journalism would be to offer some explanation of how the document is used, its function, the process of its creation.
Even brief detail of the document is missing from the article. So, before I jump to any conclusion that this is bad for the swift boat vets, I want more information.
I'm not dismissing that there is a contradiction between Thurlow's account and the document. But to weigh the contradiction I have to know the source. It is not given to us. And, Thurlow, according to the post, speculated that Kerry could have been the source of at least some of the language used in the citation.
If it was learned that Kerry had direct input into the document, that would certainly call it into question. Even if Kerry had indirect input, that also will call it into question.
Again, given the controversy on this issue, I find it funny the reporter would leave such a hole in the story.
How did the document get written, what was the information stream? Are these documents always correct? Or are they subject to subjective input, padding, and manipulation?
The people challenging the credibility of the Swift Boat Vets have a document they can figuratively wave around and refer to until we actually learn what that document is. So, on that I will agree with you that it is a piece of something for those challenging the swift boat vets.
But here is the heart of the matter: Thurlow said, "It is sickening and disgusting." Is it sickening and disgusting because the truth of what really happened that day got twisted in the political ambitions and record manipulations of a Swift boat commander, those manipulations have now cast other vets medals in doubt? Is it sickening and disgusting because people challenging the Swift Boat Vets account are twisting truth on its head the same as lawyers sometimes do to make a case? Or is it sickening and disgusting to Thurlow because he has now been caught in a contradiction that shows him to be wrong?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1194386/posts?page=51,50
Oh, I agree with you. I wouldn't trust their parsing.
Everyone, please notice how the article I posted has edited Thurlow's remarks from the quotes in post #8.
Lawyers will glob on to anything and wave it like a bloody flag to discredit and divert people from the truth.
On Sunday's fox news media watch show the blond college professor Jane Something was saying that the author of the swift boat recanted his story.
They never fixed her false claim that the reporter for the Boston Globe who is paid by Kerry wrote that he recanted but he says he never said such thing !
I saw that show too and noted the same thing. I wrote to the show about it. You should also. newswatch@foxnews.com
Tell them to get their facts straight. Well, maybe you can elaborate a bit more than that :)
It hasn't dawned on them JFK is the liar (yet)...
Elaborate on this. I do not get your point. My post - and Thurow's remarks posted - were from an MSN article. Did you note a change in the story? Please clarify.
Steve Gardner was the gunner on Kerry's boat. Here is his first hand account of several of these incidents and an explanation of Kerry's falsified reports and documentation that are now referred to by the Kerry water carriers as "the Naval documents":
Real Player high speed connection:
http://www.wbt.com/dynamic/jh/audio/play_media/play.cfm?mediatype=realaudio&path=http://www.wbt.com/dynamic/jh/audio&speed=100&ext=rm&MediaID=230
Click here for other listening options:
http://www.wbt.com/hancock/index.cfm
(center right, halfway down the page)
This is a must listen!
There is too the question of authorship. Kerry wrote himself up for some of his decorations. Others , perhaps Thurlow, perhaps not, would never think of putting themselves forward for a medal. As you say, there is a lot of information missing here. Knowingly?
Thank you for the LINKS!!
They've become too enamored with themselves and preserving their "profession" on that show.
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