Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: microgood
I would not look for a God per se, but the mechanism by which life came to a dead planet. Places where life is the oldest, most concentrated, around known meteorite sites to see if it was brought here to one location, then spread naturally. I would also want to test for alternate dimensions in the universe somehow as a possibility. I would also study what it would take to bring all the necessary conditions for life together on the planet to allow life.

All of those avenues of research are already being explored.

What I would not do is say we absolutely just formed here as the earth cooled down and randomly happened and only do research based on that assumption.

I don't know of anyone who is saying that we "absolutely" formed here that way, nor is research being done "only" on that scenario.

However, it's no contradiction to also say that the best available evidence, and best available knowledge of the relevant fields, points towards natural abiogenesis. That conclusion could change overnight if new evidence or new knowledge ended up shifting the "best fit" theory towards some other conclusion. But at the moment, the admittedly incomplete evidence and knowledge (which in a real world are *never* "complete") indicates that abiogenesis is the best theory.

Science, in a nutshell, is all about honestly following the evidence where it leads (while looking for more), and accepting that even incomplete or sketchy evidence is a better indication of what's likely to be true than any guesses about what a fuller picture *might* indicate, or what we'd *prefer* to be true.

My gut instinct tells me life came from somewhere else than this planet, in whatever form but living,

"Gut instinct" being what you'd prefer to be true, or a guess about what might be. Why do you consider that a more reliable indicator than what an examination of the real world best indicates right now?

and there is nothing compelling enough in abiogenesis theory to change my gut instinct.

And just how familiar with abiogenesis theory are you, and how familiar are you with the known evidence?

That is not to say I could not change my thinking is some compelling evidence was discovered.

What if it already has, and you're not aware of it?

This is the dilemma when laymen adopt too much skepticism towards science, and refuse to believe some widely accepted theory (like evolution, *cough*) unless it can be explained to them in such great detail and so much evidence presented to them personally, that they are no longer able to think of any conceivable argument against it. It's especially a problem when they have preconceptions or pre-existing beliefs which would be challenged by the science.

Even professional scientists can't possibly personally verify every accepted scientific principle in every scientific discipline -- an entire lifetime would not be long enough to personally be shown and be convinced of every piece of evidence and every verification of every piece of the full body of scientific knowledge. So barring a damned good reason to question a particular conclusion in a particular discipline, the scientific individual provisionally accepts the established body of scientific knowledge, confident in the ability of the system to efficiently guard against the acceptance of nonsense to start with, and to eventually shake out the few bits of nonsense that manage to sneak in anyway.

And compared to any other system of discovering and accumulating reliable knowledge (or truth, if you will), science is lightyears ahead of whatever method is in second place. In short, the wise person accepts what science currently concludes on a topic (i.e., what the evidence indicates), and does not lightly cast it aside for what their "gut" thinks about it. For every person whose "gut" tells them "X", there's a person whose gut tells them the opposite. Intuition or feelings or even "common sense" are notoriously unreliable -- just look at liberals if you need an example.

Science is all about doing "reality checks" against the evidence, as a guard against getting stuck in the rut of what we'd *like* to believe.

But science is not a body of "gospel from on high" which cannot be questioned. On the contrary, being constantly questioned is what keeps it always self-correcting. HOWEVER, since established theories are built upon large foundations of evidence and verification (yes, including evolutionary theory and abiogenesis theory), it's ludicrous for someone to try to overthrow or tear down an existing theory without being armed with a great deal of knowledge about how and why the current theory has taken the form that it has, and what evidence and testing it rests upon.

This is why so many "amateur creationists" (and a lot of the allegedly professional ones) are so freaking annoying. They attack with little more than a firm feeling that the theory must be wrong somewhere, a small amount of knowledge about it (often wrong in fundamental ways, gleaned from poorly prepared creationist books or websites), and then smugly fire a popgun at a castle of theory while spouting something like, for example, "man couldn't have evolved from apes since there are still apes, all you scientists are real idiots for not realizing that, you're obviously just swallowing the Kool-aid of the anti-God conspiracy." Sigh.

The amount of hubris in such behavior is breathtaking.

As the old saying goes, "the first requirement for training a dog, is to know more than the dog". Likewise, anyone hoping to have a chance in hell of overthrowing a well-established field of science (including evolution), is going to have to make sure that they know the subject up, down, and sideways, which is not something they're going to learn from reading a popular book by Behe or Wells, or visiting a few creationist websites. Or by going with their gut.

548 posted on 08/17/2004 7:19:49 PM PDT by Ichneumon ("...she might as well have been a space alien." - Bill Clinton, on Hillary, "My Life", p. 182)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 527 | View Replies ]


To: Ichneumon

[Thunderous applause!]


550 posted on 08/17/2004 7:30:28 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (If I never respond to you, maybe it's because I think you're an idiot.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 548 | View Replies ]

To: Ichneumon; PatrickHenry
i think that is very well stated. and reading through what you have said i have decided to ask you this directly. i have not received a response to my post 241, and the reason may be related to PatrickHenry's tag line, but in any case i did ask in sincerity of searching for information. being noncommittal myself (open) i wish a civil discussion could be had, instead, to some other posts, i get bashed for making a statement or raising a question-- and that leads me to agree with creationists in one area: evolution, et al. is not allowed to be questioned.
553 posted on 08/17/2004 7:50:19 PM PDT by kpp_kpp
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 548 | View Replies ]

To: Ichneumon
What if it already has, and you're not aware of it?

Well read all the links you sent me yesterday(#212). Is there more?

"Gut instinct" being what you'd prefer to be true, or a guess about what might be.

Actually by that I meant my accumulated knowledge in my life, my reasoning, and just my problem solving abilities. Certainly is not what I want to believe. My 4 years of school in Philosophy and 4 years of Electrical Engineering took that away from me. I cannot believe what I want to believe any more.

Why do you consider that a more reliable indicator than what an examination of the real world best indicates right now?

Just because it is the best we have now does not mean it rises to the level of believability. And I do not think that is evolutionary science's fault. I can say F = ma because I can do tons of empirical testing and employ deductive reasoning on that empirical data. But what happened a billion years ago (did life occur all at once, or did it happen as abiogenesis says) is much harder to say with any sort of certainty. All we have are fossil records and a constantly improving and very impressive developing science in genetics and biology. Basically abiogenesis is in the same category as the Big Bang theory, a theory based on current knowledge of how the universe is but little empirical data about how we got here.

Science is all about doing "reality checks" against the evidence, as a guard against getting stuck in the rut of what we'd *like* to believe.

Problem with abiogenesis is there isn't a lot of evidence out there. Its like trying to solve a murder with out any physical evidence.

HOWEVER, since established theories are built upon large foundations of evidence and verification (yes, including evolutionary theory and abiogenesis theory), it's ludicrous for someone to try to overthrow or tear down an existing theory without being armed with a great deal of knowledge about how and why the current theory has taken the form that it has, and what evidence and testing it rests upon.

Maybe one can think the entire method of analysis is flawed, that it relies to much on the current state of the world with out much evidence of when it occurred. It almost sounds like you are saying here that if you want to tear down my theory, you have to do it by my rules and get my approval to do it.

This is why so many "amateur creationists" (and a lot of the allegedly professional ones) are so freaking annoying. They attack with little more than a firm feeling that the theory must be wrong somewhere, a small amount of knowledge about it.

Possibly true, but when you claim to have with absolute certainty the question that everyone in the entire planet want to know that will affect their view of the whole world and their existence and significance their entire life, which many on this forum do, maybe you can see why the other side gets annoyed. I would not categorize the theory of abiogenesis as absolute certainly but I hear that in the language and argument methods by some of those whose believe evolutionary theory to be true.

The question of the origin of life is so huge that you cannot as scientists even argue that how it happened can only be determined by scientific methods. In fact the science method as we currently define it may be wholly inadequate to answer this question. Science requires proof, and it is hard to get a whole lot from a billion years ago.
572 posted on 08/17/2004 10:47:42 PM PDT by microgood
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 548 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson