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Footnotes are in the original. Underlining and bold font supplied by me.
1 posted on 08/07/2004 2:28:54 PM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: Admin Moderator

Help. Typo in title. The word should be "Cosmos."


2 posted on 08/07/2004 2:29:41 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (The 1st Law of Creation Science: Everything proves creationism!)
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To: PatrickHenry

Miracle of Being placemarker.

The fact that there is anything at all still astounds me.


4 posted on 08/07/2004 2:47:06 PM PDT by headsonpikes (Spirit of '76 bttt!)
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To: PatrickHenry

The anthropic principle is explained in the legend of Goldilocks and the Three Bears. It is related to the discovery by most of us at age 3 that we are in one particular body and no other. Are we each our body? No, we are in our body. Where were we before our body came into being; where will we be after our body craps out? There is probably nothing here for science to work with; the anthropic principle is not a theory, not a law. I would like to see if the anthropic principle is an empirical a priori idea like God, man, cosmos, and causality.


5 posted on 08/07/2004 2:47:41 PM PDT by RightWhale (Withdraw from the 1967 UN Outer Space Treaty and establish property rights)
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To: PatrickHenry

We are very lucky to live in a universe so carefully arranged that it is possible for us to exist!

ATHEIST: Yep, we sure are lucky!
THEIST: Yep, God sure arranged it carefully!

There is really no other productive argument which can be made along these lines.


8 posted on 08/07/2004 3:17:23 PM PDT by SedVictaCatoni
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To: PatrickHenry

bump


11 posted on 08/07/2004 3:21:27 PM PDT by VOA
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To: PatrickHenry

Ultimately, the "anthropic principle" is uninteresting and proves nothing. It amounts to the simple observation that if we were not here, we would not be here. It leaves utterly untouched the necessity of a creative power that is itself uncreated, the impossibility that every being is contingent on some other being.


19 posted on 08/07/2004 3:54:39 PM PDT by Arthur McGowan
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To: PatrickHenry
More nonsense. Where do you find this stuff? The anthropic principle most famously was put forward by the Jesuit priest Teilhard de Chardin for crying out loud. The author of this piece ignores him.

How one arrives at the multiverse is another matter, but there are possible mechanisms for that.

Mumble mumble. Haha! More BS.

20 posted on 08/07/2004 3:58:43 PM PDT by beckett
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To: RadioAstronomer; longshadow; Physicist
Last sentence of the article:
Smolin points to astrophysical measurements that we are able to make now, that could refute cosmological natural selection. For example, the existence of neutron stars with a mass greater than 1.6 times that of the Sun would scupper the idea. So, it could be wrong...but at least it's science.

I understand a neutron star is always around 1.5 times the mass of the sun (although I've seen estimates of between 1 and 2 solar masses). If it gets much more massive than that, a black hole results. So if Smolin's hypothetical neutron star of 1.6 times the sun's mass existed, or whatever the theoretical limit actually is ... a whole lot of stuff would have to be re-thunk.

28 posted on 08/07/2004 4:27:12 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.)
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To: PatrickHenry
I rarely post on these sort of threads but something just occurred to me.

given the following:

I believe that in a universe in which its causality could be traced unquestionably to God our ability to act freely wouldn't exist. However that unquestionable proof of God would work, I think it would have to manifest itself in a completely rigid deterministic link to the Creator.

This would be imperfect in that the requirement of freewill would be negated. So I'm suggesting that perhaps the disjoint between the set of all knowable things arrived at by faith and those arrived at through the scientific method is a necessary one.

And furthermore this particular topic, one of origins, exists at a nexus between faith and science. So by necessity, I don't believe we will ever find a scientific proof of God or divine creation on our own. The proof must exist but it will have to be bestowed from outside this system (thinking of our universe as a control volume).

31 posted on 08/07/2004 4:59:18 PM PDT by avg_freeper (Gunga galunga. Gunga, gunga galunga)
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To: PatrickHenry
Let us remember the most cogent formulation of the anthropic principle: "You see, there's no question that Post Grape Nuts Cereal is right for you. It's whether you're right for Grape Nuts." -- Wilford Brimley
34 posted on 08/07/2004 5:13:15 PM PDT by Physicist
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To: PatrickHenry

This idea is as embarrassing as the "Gaia" hypothesis.


40 posted on 08/07/2004 6:10:19 PM PDT by aculeus
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To: PatrickHenry
Lee's proposal is a fascinating case-study in the attempt to use Darwinism as a club with which to beat religion. (I call him by first name because I know him personally.)

Quite bizarrely on the one hand, Lee objects to the non-falsifiability of the anthropic principle (Indeed a valid objection--as readers of evolution threads know, I am a sort of hyper-Popperian in that I insist that not only should scientific theories in the small sense be falsifable, but that the applicability of the formalisms on which they are based be falsifiable.). On the other hand, he proposes the unfalsifiable theory that black-holes spawn other universes--another universe is by definition impossible to observe, and thus its existence or non-existence is unfalsifiable. (I also object very strongly to the 'many worlds' interpretation of quantum mechanics both on Popperian grounds and on the basis of Occam's Razor.) Limiting the discussion to the physical universe in which we find ourselves, which for reasons of observability is a necessity if one proposes to pursue emperical science, he replaces the unobservable, unfalsifiable Divine First Cause with an equally unobservable, unfalsifiable First-Cause-as-a-black-hole-in-another-universe.

47 posted on 08/07/2004 8:06:07 PM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know what this was)
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To: PatrickHenry

The other day, I was dealt the K, J, 9 and 4 of Spades, the Q, 10, 8 of Hearts, the 7, and 4 of Diamonds, and the A, 7, 5 and 2 of Clubs. The probability of getting such a hand is exactly the same as of getting all Clubs. The Anthropic Principle is equivalent to saying that my outcome was so unlikely that the deck must have been stacked.

Someone (PH, your or VR, maybe) called it the "Fallacy of Retrospective Astonishment." Acceptance of the Anthropic Principle means assuming that the universe is completely deterministic (otherwise, something different may have occured, he said Candidely).


52 posted on 08/07/2004 8:54:29 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: PatrickHenry

BTTT


60 posted on 08/07/2004 9:17:25 PM PDT by Fiddlstix (This Tagline for sale. (Presented by TagLines R US))
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To: PatrickHenry

As far as I can tell nothing exists except chocolate cake


69 posted on 08/07/2004 10:23:33 PM PDT by woofie ( I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize.)
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To: PatrickHenry

The truely wise morn neither the living nor the dead. There has never been a time when we did not exist - nor will there ever be.


89 posted on 08/08/2004 9:28:14 AM PDT by sandydipper (Less government is best government!)
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To: PatrickHenry
The argument usually goes something like this. Let us assume that our Universe is in fact just one of many.

"Let us assume that Laz is incredibly handsome, well dressed, wealthy, extraordinarily smart, and gifted."

See? I, too, can start an argument with a baseless premise!

93 posted on 08/08/2004 9:34:40 AM PDT by Lazamataz ("Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown" -- harpseal)
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To: PatrickHenry
then fine-tuned universes like ours can arise by cosmological natural selection.

Living reproducing universes? How else could they naturally select? What a crock.

100 posted on 08/08/2004 9:53:02 AM PDT by RobFromGa (Kerry/Edwards: Hating America One Vote at a Time)
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To: PatrickHenry

One unignorable sticking point in cosmology which is always ignored is that either all mass has existed forever or that all mass sprang spontaneously from eternal energy.


114 posted on 08/08/2004 11:00:01 AM PDT by Old Professer (A faint light is often made brilliant by the darkness.)
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To: PatrickHenry
We know that carbon exists in the Universe irrespective of the existence of life, so life plays no essential role in the logic.

Who's this "we", if "life plays no essential role in the logic"?

190 posted on 08/09/2004 7:16:11 AM PDT by steve-b (Panties & Leashes Would Look Good On Spammers)
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