Posted on 08/04/2004 5:02:48 AM PDT by A. Pole
Leni
Bump
Right now French Jews are coming to Israel in record numbers. With the economy rapidly improving and Palestinian violence being checked by the IDF and the security barrier people aren't leaving and aliyah is increasing again, even from the States.
Many Russian olim came to Israel for economic reasons in the first place. They were never Zionists and some failed to integrate themselves into Israeli culture. For them to leave isn't surprising, but the vast majority have stayed in Israel and I suspect that will never change.
This history of often violent ant-Semitism in Russia is a long one. I would like to believe that it is in the past, but I am cognisant enough of history to fear that these Russian Jews may flee to Israel once again.
The article fails to consider the possibility that among the immigrants returning back to Russia a majority are ethnic Russian non-Jews, a significant number of whom immigrated to Israel in the 90s.
This issue is quite tricky - do you realize than no pogroms took place in Russia proper? They happened on the Ukraine.
The reason was old conflict between Jews and Ukranians caused by the system of arenda of XVII century in which Polish nobles gave Jewish overseers absolute power over serfs in exchange for high fees. The worst largest pogroms occured during the peasant revolt of Khmelnitsky when countless Jews and Poles perished.
I know personally two Jewish families which returned to Russia from United States (one of them was living for years in Israel). On the other hand you can have ethnic Russians (usually married to a Jew) who do not want to go back.
And a ping for those on Alouette's list, she's away from her computor.
Yes, the pogroms were mostly within what is now Ukraine, Belarus, and Moldova, all then parts of the Czarist Russian empire. Jews had already been restricted to the Pale of Settlement by that time and weren't allowed to live in Russia proper. The policies of forced conscription, forced assimilation, and eventually extermination came from the Czarist government. The Black Hundreds were funded by the Czar.
Sorry, I can't let Russia off the hook that easily. Indeed, all the nations in that region, including Poland, have a history of anti-Semitism. That is NOT a reflection on the people living there today, who should be judged as individuals, or the governments of today. Indeed, both Poland and Ukraine are positioning themselves as close allies of the United States and have excellent relations with Israel. Relations between Russia and Israel, while not nearly as close, are still cordial.
Looking at all the countries in the region I am much more sanguine about Poland and Ukraine than I am about the Russian Federation. Indeed, the direction both the Polish government and people are moving in, politically, socially, and economically is very positive. I cannot say the same for Russia under Putin, as much as I would like to.
The worst atrocities took place in XVII century and at that time the area was under Polish rule (and Poles were among the victims too). Forced conscription or draft applied to all ethnic/religious groups. Russia did not have a volunteer army. Extermination?! First time I hear something like that.
Present day Russia is different place for most part, especially from crap that western communist media print.
I read a good analysis by Israeli historian of Khmelnitsky's revolt. He says that majority is overrated...why? Because he did research on census before and after (ok within 20 years after) but applying natural growth rate...two things come up: one Khmelnitsky could not have killed off so many Jews because all of Eastern Europe did not have as many as was claimed. two: the Jewish population was way to high on the next census for such massive depopulations.
I would humbly suggest that you do some research on "The League of Russian People" a/k/a the Black Hundreds, who organized the pogroms of 1905-06. They were pro-Czarist, used to put down revolution and instill terror, and their stated policy towards the Jews was extermination and they were (albeit unofficially) backed and funded by the Czarist government.
My grandparents left, and never looked back; neither wiull I.
"This issue is quite tricky - do you realize than no pogroms took place in Russia proper? They happened on the Ukraine"
This has virtually no basis in reality. Pogroms, state sponsored and otherwise, took place not just in the Ukraine but all over the Pale of Settlement (Lithuania, Latvia, Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Poland) into which Jews had been herded by Russia, and particularly in Belarus, Russia, Latvia, and Lithuania. Herewith a map:
http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/gallery/pogroms.htm
"The reason was old conflict between Jews and Ukranians caused by the system of arenda of XVII century in which Polish nobles gave Jewish overseers absolute power over serfs in exchange for high fees. The worst largest pogroms occured during the peasant revolt of Khmelnitsky when countless Jews and Poles perished"
There were many reasons for the anti-Semitism which even today flourishes in Central and Eastern Europe. Jews were and are still hated for every reason under the sun: because they were rich, because they were poor, because they were weak, because they were powerful. The chief reason though was the virulent and incessant anti-Semitism spread by the Russian Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches.
The Khmelnitsky revolt had absolutely nothing to do with the pogroms which occurred in the territories controlled by the Russian Empire in the last thirty years of the 19th century and the first decade of the 20th century.
For those who doubt the very long history of Russian anti-Semitism, go to Google and search the terms "Russian anti-Semitism" and "Russia + anti-Semitism."
Furthermore, your own experiences of Russian Jews are obviously so limited that they can be utterly discounted. It is beyond dispute though that Israel, in an act of supreme insanity, let in hundreds of thousands of non-Jewish Russians who had zip feelings for the Jewish state in the last decade or so. It therefore wouldn't be surprising if they have run away at the first sign of trouble. In actual fact, very many immigrants to the US, especially from Eastern Europe (not Jewish) left these shores within a few years of arriving, so there is a precedent here.
There were jews outside of Pale, professionals of the first and second order allowed to move to major cities. Extermination was never policy...again it occured during civil unrest but not once policy. Assimulation become policy under Alexander III & Nicholas II.
Of course in consideration that most Jews of Eastern Europe fled Western Europe during mass pogroms and total expulsions, like what Richard Lionhearted did.
That is your choice, though lack of freedoms or economy may change that one day.
"The worst atrocities took place in XVII century and at that time the area was under Polish rule (and Poles were among the victims too)."
The worst atrocities took place during the Holocaust when the Nazis together with their countless collaborators in Eastern and Central Europe murdered millions of Jews.
To begin with, Jews not herded into Pale. Pale is where Jews living when Russia aquire such territories as in Ukraine and Poland. Thus they ordered to remain and not migrate further east, and again that apply to villagers not professionals. One such reason is the already land hunger in Russia proper.
"There were jews outside of Pale, professionals of the first and second order allowed to move to major cities."
This was extremely rare.
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