Posted on 08/02/2004 5:12:15 PM PDT by missyme
I bear no responsibility for not introducing Judaism to the gentile.
I don't know of any rabbinical teachings to this effect, but I would not feel responsible for not taking the first step to introduce Jewish observance to a non-observant Jew.
First of all, as I wrote above, Jews are directed NOT to try to reform someone who is not likely to accept the reform. The rejection that will result is seen as a degradation of G-d. Therefore, if a religious Jew feels that his importuning is likely to be spurned (for example, if he sees a Jewish man riding in a car on the Sabbath or eating shellfish), he probably won't say anything didactic.
There is a Jewish concept called "kiruv", or outreach, which embraces Jews of all levels of observance and encourages them to become more observant. Even most kiruv, however, is limited to people who themselves take the initiative and ask for help with their observance or their understanding of Jewish doctrine. However, if a non-observant Jew were to sincerely ask an observant Jew -- who is not involved in kiruv -- for guidance, he most likely would be given a straightforward answer to his questions and then possibly referred to a kiruv organization.
There is only one Jewish movement that I am aware of that actually initiates outreach to non-observant Jews, and that is the Lubavitch Hassidic movement. Those are the people whom cookcounty wrote about above. As cookcounty wrote, a few Lubavitch Hassidim approached him while he was in Israel in order to encourage him to engage in a particular Jewish observance. When they found out that he is not Jewish, they turned on their heels since -- as I wrote above -- Jews do not proselytize people of other faiths.
Uh, read the article. They are not Jewish because of that belief.
Yeah Pianha. I actually do like you. You've got chutzpah.
"Jews do not proselytize people of other faiths."
I was speaking of people that had no faith, belonged to no religious affilation...
I Thank You for your post, but I think now I understand
I have heard people say that Many Jews are uncaring and un-feeling maybe they say that because they do not understand like I didn't that in Judiasm there is no obligation to reach out to people and introduce them to GOD.
In Christianity it is a must to reach out to the lost and hopeless and introduce them to GOD his peace, love and forgiveness, at least we are making a start in understanding each other's faiths...
Just to clarify, there is a Jewish obligion to reach out to people. After all, it is a Jewish commandment to love your neighbor. Jewish organizational life is famous for introducing free loan societies, free burial societies, charitable food distribution and other social services. Moreover, Jewish communities invariably organize religious schools so that the community children have resources where they can learn about their faith.
It is a Jewish obligation (not just a desirable thing, but an actual Jewish commandment) to give charity, and even to tithe one's income.
Much of the charitable money given by the religious Jewish community goes to support Jewish learning, for example to buy religious books for synagogues or classrooms or to pay for food, clothing and shelter for "kollels", or adult educational centers where married men study all day and therefore earn no money to support their families.
What Jews don't have an obligation to do is, as you write, to "introduce" people to G-d. I do admit, though, that I never have researched this question. There may be a minority rabbinical opinion that Jews do indeed have this obligation, but I never have heard of it.
You know in AA or any 12 step program the people involved are of all faiths they have something in common they pray to their higher power this prayer "God grant me the serenity to change the things I can the power of what I cannot and the wisdom to know the Difference."
Many people who end up in these types of situations have never known the Power of GOD they are introduced which is what Saves there life from destruction and death.
I just thought all monotheistic religions had an obligation to reach out to people and show them the power of GOD's goodness and PEACE.
Your accusation that a Jew who has moved into the fullness of the Covenant, and the fulfillment of the Law, is no longer a Jew. That's such a ridiculous statement that I don't even know where to begin.
Are you saying the story my father told me was a lie? Are you accusing my father, who survived the Holocaust, of lying about his experiences in Auschwitz and Troglitz?
I am very congnisant of history, thank you very much. The people in Poland who killed Jews even when the Nazis were gone called themselves Christians. So did the collaborators in Czechia. Do you deny this?
Nope. Lots of people who are raised in a generally christian society call themselves christians. Big deal. That has nothing to do with their relationship to Messiah. The Third Reich killed believers in Messiah too.
Do I believe the Nazi leadership was Christian? Of course not. Do I believe that many who called themselves Christians collaborated or turned a blind eye? Yes, and that is undeniable. Others who called themselves Christians are responsbile for hiding my mother and saving her life.
Exactly. And they would have been killed too, had they been caught.
Christians are not unified. Christianity does not, to me at least, seem to represent one set of beliefs, but rather a range of beliefs. Pogroms, the inquisition, the crusades, and a host of other evils were done in the name of Christ. Do you deny this?
Control freaks and murderers use 'religion' to justify their actions all the time. Who do you think killed Yeshua? This is nothing new. But the crucifixion is not a condemnation of all of Judaism. Unfortunately, you are using that logic to condemn 'christianity'. See the hypocrisy?
None of that history condemns the Christians of today. It does not reflect on you personally. It should, however, have some influence on how Christians approach Jews. It should impart some sensitivity. That doesn't seem to happen.
Apparently, you came to my previous point as you were writing that last statement. Good. But you certainly didn't have that attitude earlier. And as far as sensitivity goes, I don't have any patience for arrogance and pride.
My grandparents believed that all goyim were anti-Semitic. I, for one, do not share that belief. However, it is inherently anti-Semitic to try and take our religion, culture, beliefs, and way of life from us. That is what so many have defended here. That is what Christians coming to a Jewish state and prostletyzing to Jewish children is. To me that is indefensible.
These are not outsiders coming in. These are Jews doing this. You want them to show you their shmekel or something? Sheesh!
I have had another mostly sleepless night and this thread sure didn't help. Boker tov.
Peace be upon you. Sorry for the harsh demeanor.
Like the religion of peace, Islam?
Good luck to you, and amen. Just remember that, on this thread, there is a small but very vocal group who want to JAIL CHRISTIANS FOR PREACHING THE GOSPEL IN ISRAEL. That tells you all you need to know about them.
Sorry Pmom, but that determination is for Jews to make, not Christians. Hey, they can call themselves whatever they want. But if they believe in Jesus, other Jews aren't going to recognize them as Jewish. Other than in the most minimal sense that they were Jewish by birth, and that if they repent of their apostacy they can return to Judaism without needing to reconvert.
It's your opinion that Christianity is "the fulness of the Covenant, and the fulfillment of the Law". Jews believe that this is absolutely wrong. And frankly, it is offensive in its relegation of Judaism to some sort of "incomplete" status. Judaism is a complete religion all by itself; it needs no add-ons. Any more than Christianity requires the teachings of Mohammud in order to be "fulfilled". How would you react to a Muslim who told you that Islam was the "fullness" of the Christian covenant?
And as I've repeatedly said, its up to Jews to define who is a Jew. Just as it is Catholics who define who is a Catholic, Lutherans who define who is a Lutheran, etc.
Who do you think killed Yeshua?
The Romans.
These are Jews doing this.
Um, no, they are Christians. Doesn't matter, for this purpose, if they were born Jewish. If they've converted, we don't recognize them as Jews anymore. If you don't like that, tough.
There is A LAW in Israel against proselytizing minors. I see nothing unreasonable about that.
Do you have children?
There are many groups of Christians who are native to Israel. The Eastern Orthodox Church has been in Israel since the time of Jesus. AFAIK, there are no problems between the Orthodox and the Jews, but that might be because we do not attempt to convert the Jews since we see conversion as unnecesary.
American Protestants could learn a lot from their older sister churches, such as Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox.
Let's turn it around- do you think it is arrogant for me to say that Christians who do not accept Jesus as their savior are no longer Christian?
I know of many observant Jews who also believe that Jesus is the Messiah. They are no less Jewish because of that belief.
By definition, anyone who accepts Jesus as the Messiah is not an observent Jew.
You are either lying or didn't read the article. The law in question only bans prosyletizing minors.
"But I preach Jesus Christ crucifed - to the Greeks, foolishness, and to the Jews, a stumblingblock." - Paul
And I would be upset if anybody I knew gave up that God's only true Son, the Savior of the world.
I beg to differ. The symoblism of 144,000 from the various tribes being saved in the book of Revelation is merely a representation of Gods People overall (all Christians), and it communicates the fact that God knows his own. That is all it means. Don't take Revelation too literally.
One thing for sure, he wouldn't go to a Christian Church, since he was not a Christian. I think he would pray at at Orthodox synagogue, since he followed Jewish laws, was born a Jew, lived as a Jew and died as a Jew. The Christian religion -- which, as the article that you posted states, is NOT Judaism -- did not originate until decades after his death.
You are way off. It is not a question of if, but a question of when. And WHEN it happens, He will not be praying to anybody - people will be praying to HIM. But unfortunately by then it will be too late.
If Jews and Muslems numbers were reversed, would Jews be the Religion of Peace and the poor Muslims be the downtrodden friends of the USA ?
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