Posted on 08/02/2004 5:49:37 AM PDT by BluegrassScholar
Edited on 08/02/2004 10:43:46 AM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]
Carrie is 2 years old, with curly brown hair and Windex-blue eyes. In a still-life portrait, she would be adorable. In three dimensions, she's a cross between a Gerber baby and the Tasmanian devil. Bang. Bang, bang, bang, and bang and bang.
That's the noise of the plastic water cup she is whacking against the ceramic-topped table of a neighborhood coffeehouse whose concrete floors function like an echo chamber. If she had a hammer she would have destroyed the table by now, and I'm pretty sure her parents would've let her. People look up from their lattes, squint at the diminutive figure making the big, ear-splitting noise, and try to continue with their newspapers or conversations. The banging goes on for a good 10 minutes. Normally, I would say something -- I'm not shy about these things -- but I'm curious to know just how long her parents, with whom I'm having coffee, will let this go. The answer: Indefinitely. They don't even seem to notice. Maybe they're just used to it?
On some primal level, Carrie must be offended that she's not the center of attention. There is anger in her banging, along with what I read as malice. As she grows even more restive, her father lowers her to the floor. Still clutching the cup, Carrie crawls through the room, pounding on the concrete floor as she goes along, giving everyone an up-close earful of her drum solo.
A few weeks later, I'm at a party, mostly adults with a few kids sprinkled in, among them the volcanically unruly 5-year-old son of a friend. As I squat down to greet him, he responds by biting me in the arm, leaving teeth marks through a shirt and a sweater. I am just about to spank his little behind when I realize I'm in dangerous territory. People go to jail for that these days.
**Georgia DFACS?**
Yeah, imagine my horror when they pulled in the driveway. Just glad I was able to calmly talk to them (I panic at the drop of a hat) and get them to go away...
horrible, just horrible
I didn't discipline in public. If I had to discipline while at church or a store or restaurant, we went to the restroom or the car. That made a bit more of an impression too, I think, because it imposed a sort of ritual on it. Discipline has to be fairly immediate with small children. Once they're older, it's easier to use other things, like not buying the toy they want or not letting them have dessert or just waiting till you get home. The important thing is to let them know what you're going to do and why....and then follow through. If you don't, you are, in effect, rewarding bad behavior and teaching them not to believe what you say. The key to effective child discipline is effective self-discipline.
Unfortunately, too many parents take the path of least resistance....at the moment. A child who has no firm and consistent boundaries will always be testing them because he needs to know where they are to feel secure. Parents who don't provide that will face one challenge right after another, even when their kids reach adulthood. The streets and prisons are full of these "adults" who never had limits that they couldn't maneuver around.
Have you ever noticed that children without appropriate boundaries never appear happy?
I'm not familiar with it as a book, but I assume that it builds on the premise of counting before acting. Sometimes it is very effective, if used in combination with other methods. For example, if I told my my daughter to do something and she ignored me after a couple of times, I would start counting. That always got her attention. Another time that it was very effective was in removing resistance to a much deserved spanking. If she started to put up a fuss, I started counting and the number I reached before she submitted was how many swats she got. She very quickly and at a very young age, got it down to 2 or 3. I don't think it ever went over 5. This method isn't going to work for every kid, though. Child discipline is never a "one style fits all" proposition.
I'm much more a fan of logical consequences. For example, bad words resulted in a drop of tabasco. Just a drop. That's all it took. Bad words = bad taste. Very simple and effective.
Working with kids and parents, I hear this "time out" thing all the time. Personally, I think it is about the silliest thing to come along with regard to child discipline. Oh, it might have limited effectiveness....for some children, but overall, when I hear a parent threaten a kid with a "time out" I think, "oh, yeah. That's gonna work."< /sarcasm >
D*mn! What state do you live in? I work for DCFS in Arkansas, and only in very specific cases (and those supported by a preponderance of the evidence, I might add) would removing a child be the first action, and certainly NOT in a case such as you describe.
"THIS is why there is no discipline, parents are too afraid of having some stranger complain about a spank on the rear."
You're right. That is a big part of it. It is unbelievable the number of "mandated reporters" now. Doctors, teachers, nurses, day care workers, social workers....in other words, almost anyone whose job brings them in regular contact with children is required by law to call in a report if they have any suspicion of child maltreatment, and can lose their jobs if they fail to do so, even when they're off duty. Then, when a report comes in through the hotline (all child maltreatment calls are routed through the hotline), it is required by law that we investigate it. On the bright side, only about a third of these allegations are substantiated.
Perhaps in general. Growing up in Boston, one of my memories was going to the doctor, none other than T. Berry Brazelton. The one thing I remember most is how he would talk to me and my mom about my physical and psychological health, then would make my mom leave so he could ask me questions. At the time I was pretty convinced they were ridiculous questions, but now I know for sure.
Fortunately my dad did not subscribe to the Brazelton school and I grew up ok (IMHO).
And the irony of it is that unruly, out-of-control children attract enough attention that some neighbor or landlord or teacher ends up calling the child abuse hotline anyway and reporting the parents for neglect or lack of supervision.
LOL!
Parents need to know. "No" is a complete sentence. It needs no explanations, no excuses. It may need repeating and reinforcement usually in the form of one or two swats on a well padded behind. Never ever let yourself get drawn into an argument with a 2 year old or any brat. It is like mudwrestling with a pig- all that happens is that the pig enjoys it and you get dirty. If you can't say no to a toddler and have control how are you going to handle the burly 15 year old who demands the car keys and a six pack
This also would not happen as much if so many parents would not drag their young ones everywhere they go and keep them out way too late. You do have to give up some social life when you have kids. Deal with it.
bump for later reply!
**Fortunately my dad did not subscribe to the Brazelton school and I grew up ok (IMHO).**
When I need to give my eyes a good workout, I read his column in the Sunday paper here (lots of eye rolling) A child needs discipline. Yes, they must test their boundries as they grow, but giving them free reign is just stupid.
Because of my circumstances with my kids growing up (dad gone Mon - Fri working, son with Aspergers, and 3 kids very close in age) I dont mess around with discipline. I count to 3 and WHEN I get to 3 the spankings will begin. I NEVER get to 3 anymore, my kids know I am not kidding. I have now, a 13, a 12 and a 11 yr old, who know how to behave because I loved them enough to punish them.
I love being in a store and I hear a parent of an unruly child say, just wait till we get home... nothings going to happen...
I agree about the time out. Never worked for any of ours. The best thing we found for our son was taking "stuff" away. He was immune to spankings. POed him off more than anything, but didn't have much effect on him. Our youngest daughter using a slight swat on her son (2 in Sept) and he knows - he also can tell by her tone of voice what may be coming if he doesn't quit. He is a good boy. Grammaw has to go down in September and spoil him. LOL
My daughter was different. She just could hardly seem to go to bed at night if she hadn't gotten a spanking. That might be a slight exageration. She would push me, knowing what the result would be. Afterwards, she'd be fine. She was a good kid and other parents often commented about how well behaved she was. Others thought I was too strict. Interesting that the ones who thought I was too strict usually had kids that were unbearable to be around.
2. BE CONSISTENT. If the behavior is a spanking offense, SPANK EVERY TIME IT'S DONE. Otherwise, change the rules.
3. KEEP YOUR PROMISES. If you promise punishment for a certain infraction, DO IT. DO IT EVERY TIME (see 2 above)
You are right on the money. I may have made mistakes and certainly don't claim to have been a perfect parent, but those were rules I made for myself and followed through and I never regretted it. Another thing I would add to that list is 4. NEVER discipline in anger.
I agree. Not hard. Just an attention getter. Our daughter uses it on both her kids (Cassie is now 9 months old) and they are just fine. They both are "explorers" and if they don't have some kind of control they could be hurt. (our daughter & son in law live in the country) Our daughter, Krisi, is the best mom I have seen. Way better than I was.
Great story. The proudest moments of my life (raising kids) are not their achievements, but the numerous compliments we received in public places, from total strangers, as to how well behaved they were.
The greatest gift we can give them as parents, aside from wings, is the "accidental" quality of being liked by most other people.
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How true. We've lived in several neighborhoods and have seen the result of kids who were raised by permissive and indulgent parents. Many of their kids became spoiled and self-centered and wanted constant gratification, which of course leads to all kinds of problems when they grow up. Watching their experiences provided great examples of how not to raise children.
I tihnk our son could take any kind of spankings. They just didn't faze him. But take away those toys, games, tv etc and he was devastated. Then when he got older and was "out and about" we grounded him. THAT worked. LOL Our oldest daughter (now 34) says that she was grounded her whole high school life. BWT she was exaggerating. LOLL but not much. ;)
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