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I.R.S. Says Americans' Income Shrank for 2 Consecutive Years
The New York Times ^ | July 29, 2004 | DAVID CAY JOHNSTON

Posted on 07/29/2004 6:21:43 AM PDT by FoxPro

The overall income Americans reported to the government shrank for two consecutive years after the Internet stock market bubble burst in 2000, the first time that has effectively happened since the modern tax system was introduced during World War II, newly disclosed information from the Internal Revenue Service shows.

The total adjusted gross income on tax returns fell 5.1 percent, to just over $6 trillion in 2002, the most recent year for which data is available, from $6.35 trillion in 2000. Because of population growth, average incomes declined even more, by 5.7 percent.

Adjusted for inflation, the income of all Americans fell 9.2 percent from 2000 to 2002, according to the new I.R.S. data.

While the recession that hit the economy in 2001 in the wake of the market plunge was considered relatively mild, the new information shows that its effect on Americans' incomes, particularly those at the upper end of the spectrum, was much more severe. Earlier government economic statistics provided general evidence that incomes suffered in the first years of the decade, but the full impact of the blow and what groups it fell hardest on were not known until the I.R.S. made available on its Web site the detailed information from tax returns.

The unprecedented back-to-back declines in reported incomes was caused primarily by the combination of the big fall in the stock market and the erosion of jobs and wages in well-paying industries in the early years of the decade.

In the past, overall personal income rose from one year to the next with relentless monotony, the growth rate changing in response to fluctuations in economic activity but almost never falling.

But now, with many more ordinary employees joining high-level executives in having part of their compensation dependent on stock options and bonus plans, a volatile and relatively unpredictable new element has been introduced to the incomes of millions of workers.

"Risks used to be confined largely to executives and business owners with large incomes,'' said Edward N. Wolff, an economist at New York University who studies wealth and income.

"But now for many people with more modest incomes their earnings are more volatile,'' Mr. Wolff added, leaving them more vulnerable to losing pay they count on to meet regular expenses like mortgage payments, car loans and day-to-day living costs.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Government
KEYWORDS: incomes; taxes
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To: capt. norm

Yes there is that too. Where does all that wealth end up though? Some pretty large mansions in Mexico.


41 posted on 07/29/2004 7:17:04 AM PDT by FITZ
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To: familyofman

"think like that 'poor woman' at her kitchen table, or a 'spinmeister' for the dems. There is an awful lot of ammo in this report - trying to lay the blame off on a prior POTUS will seem silly and shirking responsibilty, in other words - 'that dog won't hunt'."

The report clearly indicates that individuals with lower incomes (any less than $200,000) gained in income. In other words, there are fewer poor women sitting at the table according to this data. Wealthier incomes suffered substantial losses. In your logic, democrats will exploit the tragedy of the wealthy becoming "poor?!" This does not make sense.

CNN.com now has this as the lead article. The significance here is the media spin to pretend that the data implicates average americans negatively rather than highlighting the truer statement-- the wealthy have taken a huge financial hit.


42 posted on 07/29/2004 7:19:12 AM PDT by lonestar67
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To: Anitius Severinus Boethius
Sorry, even though Bush was President, the economy is not an instant barometer of policy.

With the globalist policies, the Clinton and Bush economies are too much alike, but the decline started under Clinton --- you could see the factories and garment plants shutting down right and left more than 10 years ago.

43 posted on 07/29/2004 7:20:20 AM PDT by FITZ
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To: lonestar67

See 38. it's all about Hillary!ous.


44 posted on 07/29/2004 7:20:24 AM PDT by hobbes1 (Hobbes1TheOmniscient® "I know everything so you don't have to" ;)
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Comment #45 Removed by Moderator

To: NC28203

This would explain why the Laffer Curve isn't working. It's not the tax rates. It's the writeoffs.


46 posted on 07/29/2004 7:32:58 AM PDT by Moonman62
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To: OESY
So when is the NYTimes going with the headline:

Economic Decline, Wealthiest Hardest Hit

47 posted on 07/29/2004 7:34:28 AM PDT by Moonman62
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To: FoxPro

Not to worry, everything is going according to plan. Like Bush's amigo V. Fox said, Americans wages will drop to meet Mexico's rising wages, somewhere in the middle, then we can be one entity...ooops, I mean, Free Trade Zone.


48 posted on 07/29/2004 7:36:53 AM PDT by MissAmericanPie
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To: familyofman
"This is a report on 2002 returns, i.e. during the Clinton recession. This is not a report on 2003 or on 2004 thus far."

The declines were for the tax years ending 12/31 2001 and 2002. Who was the POTUS during those 2 years - think like that 'poor woman' at her kitchen table, or a 'spinmeister' for the dems. There is an awful lot of ammo in this report - trying to lay the blame off on a prior POTUS will seem silly and shirking responsibilty, in other words - 'that dog won't hunt'.

Yep. What we went through was a business spending depression, and GWB failed to diagnose it and fire the man responsible, Alan Greensan. Recessions are arbitrarily measured by consumer spending and the latest one was rather mild. We had not seen such a business spending decline since the Great Depression. If it weren't for 9/11 causing Greenspan to end his war on the economy, we may have ended up in another depression. GWB was clueless during the whole event.

49 posted on 07/29/2004 7:40:35 AM PDT by Moonman62
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To: FoxPro
Every morning I get up and my in-box is filled with resumes replies that start "Thank you for submitting your resume to XYZ Corporation. Due to the high volume of resumes received.......”

With a screename like FoxPro (and you may have already done this) I'll assume your an IT guy with a specialty in FoxPro...now Visual FoxPro. Broaden your skillset, The first development tool/DB app I learned was FoxPro, yet as time went by (and FoxPro lent itself to be inadequate for certain user needs) I pretty much self-taught myself VFP/VB/limited ASP/SQL and SQL serv management/SQL DTS/MS Office automation/OLAP databases etc., through books, the general "wanting" to make my job easier, good old fashoined trial and error, and on-the-job, real world pressure situations where, unless I wasn't going to "learn" it and apply a solution at a pretty quick rate...the boss was going to be plenty pissed.

I'm convinced that just about anyone can obtain skills in just about anything if they really want to, are not afraid of failing, are willing to keep at it....no matter how many mistakes you make (eventually you get it right...after all...most things are not rocket science). Don't give in...and don't give up. Eventually things have a way of working themselves out, we don't always see the light at the end of the tunnel, but we all get there.

Also, check out www.opm.gov and State of Virginia OPM page. Good luck and Godspeed to you.

50 posted on 07/29/2004 7:45:55 AM PDT by BureaucratusMaximus ("We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good" - Hillary Clinton)
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To: Voteamerica
With the value of homes going up so quickly the answer is likely that personal wealth has increased even more for the middle.

I'm not sure I understand. People have to live somewhere. If they have a house that's doubled in value in the past 5-8 years, they can sell - but all the other property out there is radically inflated in price too. The value of one's home isn't liquid. For someone in financial straits, a home equity loan is a ticket to potential disaster.

51 posted on 07/29/2004 7:47:37 AM PDT by valkyrieanne
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To: familyofman
"Did they adjust for the Bush tax cuts?"

Not even relevant - the report is on incomes before taxes, not after.

Right you are. Those tax cuts were to improve the economy and also ending the double taxation was to spur job growth. So those jobs must be out there somewhere. Hope they show up by election day or Snow will really be replaced.

52 posted on 07/29/2004 7:47:51 AM PDT by ex-snook ("BUT ABOVE ALL THINGS, TRUTH BEARETH AWAY THE VICTORY")
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To: FITZ

They can get a CDL and drive a truck for KBR in Iraq...


53 posted on 07/29/2004 7:48:22 AM PDT by Eagle Eye (Coming to you live from HESCO City...)
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To: Anitius Severinus Boethius

"...even though Bush was President, the economy is not an instant barometer of policy."

I know that and you know that, but how will this be spun to the masses, most of whom will never know this? Business/economic cycles continue - even when there is a change in administrations and credit is given, blame placed on a POTUS many times for things which are really outside the control of politicians and economists. The fact remains that the 'captain of the ship' at the time of the event gets identified with the event, fair/logical or not - that is my point.

Keep your eyes and ears open & see how this is reported.


54 posted on 07/29/2004 7:50:21 AM PDT by familyofman (and the first animal is jettisoned - legs furiously pumping)
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To: BureaucratusMaximus
I'm convinced that just about anyone can obtain skills in just about anything if they really want to, are not afraid of failing, are willing to keep at it....

I am convinced that beating my brains out to learn the latest software skill is basically a very bad gamble. Why should I spend my time learning something that my Indian and Russian friends will happily do for less than $12 per hour. I think I will go back to school and get a law degree.

55 posted on 07/29/2004 9:25:33 AM PDT by FoxPro (jroehl2@yahoo.com)
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To: OESY

THANK YOU for your post (#6). Incomes fell for MILLIONAIRES for two years. The RICH got POORER, the POOR got RICHER!!!!. So tell me, NYT, is this a good thing or a bad thing??? John Kerry: is this a good thing or bad thing?


56 posted on 07/29/2004 10:23:23 AM PDT by bobsatwork
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To: FoxPro

Take away the effects of stock sale gains, and the picture will change, I'll bet.


57 posted on 07/29/2004 10:28:12 AM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Your Friendly Freeper Patent Attorney)
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To: ex-snook
So those jobs must be out there somewhere.

Yes --- the jobs are out there --- way out there --- in China. The tax refunds were great but many people didn't invest them in stocks or pay off debts, they went shopping at Walmart and bought a bunch of cheap stuff not made in the USA.

58 posted on 07/29/2004 7:02:54 PM PDT by FITZ
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To: FoxPro
Every morning I get up and my in-box is filled with resumes replies that start "Thank you for submitting your resume to XYZ Corporation. Due to the high volume of resumes received.......”

How unusual. My son just got a job (last year, actually) at a Fortune 500 company and is getting 60k, plus great benefits.

Ironically, he was offered two more jobs within three months of getting hired.

As for myself, I was hired during the Bush Administration.

We've also had a number of openings this year and last as people get hired away to bigger and better jobs at other companies.

To wrap it up, I'm not sure what it is you're doing wrong, but I'd consider creating another resume, or something along those lines.

59 posted on 07/29/2004 7:09:52 PM PDT by Edit35
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To: Voteamerica
With the value of homes going up so quickly the answer is likely that personal wealth has increased even more for the middle.

What's the rate of foreclosure on homes now? In this area there are many houses going into foreclosures for several reasons, many homes in the central neighborhoods have been sitting vacant for a number of years --- no renters or buyers living in them and they seem to be decaying very rapidly by sitting empty. A home that forecloses often looses 50% of it's "value", a home that forecloses in a dead or dying neighborhood with many vacancies maybe loose most of it's "value".

Also how much "wealth" being invested in these homes if from government subsidized mortgages and rent? We're seeing 20 year old single mothers buying houses with a lot of government help --- how well are they going to maintain these houses, how well will the value stay?

60 posted on 07/29/2004 7:20:18 PM PDT by FITZ
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