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Preemption doctrine the flaw in Iraq
New Zealand Herald ^ | July 25, 04 | John Roughan

Posted on 07/24/2004 7:55:53 AM PDT by churchillbuff

John Roughan: Pre-emption doctrine the flaw in Iraq mess

24.07.2004 COMMENT The peace movement is going to an early screening of Fahrenheit 9/11 this afternoon. I probably could have gone along. For a while now I have been receiving unsolicited invitations to all their rallies against the Iraq war and other American crimes, such as capitalism.

But much as I am looking forward to the Michael Moore movie on the Bush presidency I don't want to see it with an uncritical chorus. The trouble with the peace movement - and all critics of the Iraq disaster so far - is that they don't seem to realise why the war was wrong.

I don't expect Moore will be different. There was a scene in Bowling for Columbine when he confronted a spokesman for a missile assembly plant that employed the fathers of the two boys who committed the school massacre. Moore put it to him that the reason the boys shot up the school might have had something to do with the fact that their fathers went to work every day for a company that made weapons of mass destruction.

The flack replied, with remarkable forbearance I thought, that he could see no connection. The missiles they were making, he said, were for the defence of the country and it was not a country that went out and attacked people just because it felt like or because it didn't like them.

Right there Moore had the indictment of the war George W. Bush was at that time fomenting. But then, with his usual heavy-handed irony, Moore went over the top. He cut to footage of the first Gulf War, Kosovo, Nicaragua, Panama, Vietnam - every US military engagement he could muster from a film archive, as though they were all equally unwarranted, equally offensive.

There was all the difference in the world between the first Gulf War and the second. The first was a response to Saddam Hussein's invasion and annexation of Kuwait. Kosovo was an intervention against ethnic cleansing that should have happened sooner. Most other items in Moore's catalogue, including Vietnam, were conflicts the US joined for geopolitical purposes during the Cold War.

There is an important difference between intervening in a conflict and picking a fight in cold blood. The national interest might be the same but the justification is not. And justification matters, not only to soldiers who regard war as a last resort but also to the national morale. When the justification is dubious a democracy cannot sustain the fight.

Pacifists, who hold all war to be wrong and avoidable, and leftists who oppose all war waged by the US, are no help when it comes to drawing useful lessons from the mess in Iraq.

But nor have been the official inquiries in the US and Britain that confirm that the case for war was based on dubious intelligence, wildly exaggerated by the elected leaders of those countries.

THOSE inquiries have been valuable in their own way, removing surely for all time the mystique of the CIA and MI6. They are not, and probably never were, the all-powerful, all-penetrating organisations of popular fiction and political conspiracy theories. They are Government departments really, in which mostly desk-bound officials study a country of interest and file snippets of information that mostly they cannot verify.

Very little if any of it comes from actually infiltrating enemy organisations. The congressional inquiry has found that none of the US intelligence bureaux had agents in Iraq after 1998 when the United Nations weapons inspectors were expelled. Before then the agencies had relied heavily on information supplied by the UN team (which Saddam Hussein accused of spying).

But the bulk of US intelligence on Saddam's regime came from exiles with an axe to grind. The principal source, Ahmed Chalabi, who hoped to be Prime Minister once Saddam was toppled, had not been inside Iraq for decades. The emigre whom the US has now installed as Iraq's Prime Minister, Ayad Allawi, admits to being the source of Tony Blair's famous claim that Saddam would need just 45 minutes to deploy the WMD.

But while opponents of the war can derive vindication from non-existent weapons and the like, those are not the reasons the war was wrong. In fact, by dwelling so much on the spectral weapons, opponents of the war are in danger of implying that if the material had been found, the invasion would have been justified.

That is not very far from the fall-back position of Bush and Blair. They now argue it was right to invade Iraq even if their suspicions were wrong.

No country can invade another simply because it suspects the other is capable of doing harm, any more than a civilised country can execute or imprison people on suspicion of criminal potential. The US would not accept that principle as a general rule of international conduct and ought not to reserve that right to itself.

Unfortunately, that is exactly what the Bush Administration has done with a doctrine of "pre-emption" which it has tested in Iraq. The resulting mess has much to do with the faults of the doctrine, which not only saps the commitment of American soldiers and citizens when they realise they're unwelcome but also provides sustenance to the resistance.

Not very long ago, after the collapse of European communism, it was being widely noted that democracies did not start wars. The theory was that government that depended on the popular will could not put citizens' lives at risk unless attacked.

Insiders have testified that Bush came to the White House much more interested in Saddam than Osama bin Laden and in the days following September 11 the White House was intent on finding Saddam's hand in the destruction of the Twin Towers.

The obsession produced an unprovoked invasion and occupation of a country the President and his military advisers barely understood. Now that Americans are waking up to the man they rather lightly elected four years ago, it is vital that they and we work out why his war was wrong.

An international code of civilised power is still to be restored.


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: chamberlainbuff; iraq; nothinglikewinston; preemption; syphiliticdementia
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Here's the "money quote," as Andrew Sullivan would say:

No country can invade another simply because it suspects the other is capable of doing harm, any more than a civilised country can execute or imprison people on suspicion of criminal potential. The US would not accept that principle as a general rule of international conduct and ought not to reserve that right to itself.

Unfortunately, that is exactly what the Bush Administration has done with a doctrine of "pre-emption" which it has tested in Iraq. The resulting mess has much to do with the faults of the doctrine, which not only saps the commitment of American soldiers and citizens when they realise they're unwelcome but also provides sustenance to the resistance.

Not very long ago, after the collapse of European communism, it was being widely noted that democracies did not start wars. The theory was that government that depended on the popular will could not put citizens' lives at risk unless attacked.

Insiders have testified that Bush came to the White House much more interested in Saddam than Osama bin Laden and in the days following September 11 the White House was intent on finding Saddam's hand in the destruction of the Twin Towers.

The obsession produced an unprovoked invasion and occupation of a country the President and his military advisers barely understood. Now that Americans are waking up to the man they rather lightly elected four years ago, it is vital that they and we work out why his war was wrong.

An international code of civilised power is still to be restored.

1 posted on 07/24/2004 7:55:54 AM PDT by churchillbuff
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To: churchillbuff

The relationship between states is different than the relationship between a State and a citizen of that state.


2 posted on 07/24/2004 8:06:54 AM PDT by H.Akston
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To: churchillbuff
I guess since Saddam didn't actually manage to shoot down an allied plane during the twelve years he spent trying, I suppose that would only be grounds to 'suspect' he was capable of doing harm.

Ho hum..more of the same. This is a step up from your usual efforts, I'll give you that.
3 posted on 07/24/2004 8:07:04 AM PDT by Belisaurius ("Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, Ted" - Joseph Kennedy 1958)
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To: Petronski
Here's the "money quote," as Andrew Sullivan would say:

Bidding starts at one Romanian leu.

4 posted on 07/24/2004 8:07:23 AM PDT by dighton
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To: churchillbuff
No country can invade another simply because it suspects the other is capable of doing harm, any more than a civilised country can execute or imprison people on suspicion of criminal potential.

In other words, the Iraq war was wrong because it violated Saddam Hussein's right to continue to rule Iraq. That's what the "national sovereignty" argument boils down to.

5 posted on 07/24/2004 8:09:46 AM PDT by ScottFromSpokane (Re-elect President Bush: http://spokanegop.org/bush.html)
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To: churchillbuff
There had been a perpetual state of war between Iraq and the US for a dozen years. Also since murder and intimidation aren't sufficient to make Saddam a legitimate ruler why would removing that which is illegitimate need any further justification than that it is illegitimate? As for preemption protecting citizens is the primary purpose of government and if preemption is the best way to accomplish that goal then it is justified. Waiting for a nation to build "the Bomb" and then then send it on its way to the US before taking action is not a very effective way to defend our citizens.
6 posted on 07/24/2004 8:15:20 AM PDT by Libertarianize the GOP (Make all taxes truly voluntary)
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To: churchillbuff
Why do you post this stuff. You know, because it has been pointed out to you on a number of occasions, that Hussein was routinely firing missiles at our pilots. That meant, in case I have to spell it out for you, that he was trying to KILL our fellow Americans. So we had two alternate choices we could have made with respect to Hussein's provocations. First, we could have followed Clinton's example with bin Laden and not responded -- with the consequences of that inaction being 9/11. Or alternately we could have done what Bush did and ended the issue once and for all by demonstrating to every thug on the face of the earth that if you attack American citizens, the United States will respond and you will end up like Hussein did -- with a tongue depressor stuck down your throat.

Simply put, the war in Iraq had nothing to do with pre-emption and everything to do with self-defense.

7 posted on 07/24/2004 8:17:25 AM PDT by vbmoneyspender
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To: churchillbuff
Insiders have testified that Bush came to the White House much more interested in Saddam than Osama bin Laden...

MAYBE IT WAS BECAUSE HE TRIED TO KILL HIS DAD (GHWBUSH) IN KUWAIT YOU DUMBASS.

8 posted on 07/24/2004 8:18:19 AM PDT by I got the rope
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To: churchillbuff

By the way...the war was never declared over! It was a ceasefire with conditions. Just because BJ Clinton was too preoccupied or was too much of a p_ssy to deal with real problems does not make this Bush's fault. Clinton should have dealt with Saddam decisively.

Here's my question for you Andrew Sullivan?

If Saddam wasn't a threat, then why in the hell did your boy Clinton BOMB him every year while in office?


9 posted on 07/24/2004 8:22:09 AM PDT by I got the rope
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To: churchillbuff

This ignorant bloke, and you, may want to refresh your memories of the Schultz doctrine promulgated by the Reagan Administration in the 1980's.

You may also wish to reflect on the fact that were it not for "pre-emptive war in 1967, Israel would not exist.


10 posted on 07/24/2004 8:22:25 AM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: Belisaurius
Ho hum..more of the same. This is a step up from your usual efforts, I'll give you that.

He does have the liberal "talking points" down pat doesn't he?

11 posted on 07/24/2004 8:23:49 AM PDT by Graybeard58
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To: churchillbuff

When Saddam Hussein started paying the families of suicide bombers that attacked Israel, he gave all the cover he had to, to justify his removal from office. He was in essense attacking a sovereign state by proxy. His additional comments with regard to the United States left little doubt where his efforts would lead him, or those he chose to support financially.

Given the opportunity to show the world he had no weapons of mass destruction, he refused to reveal how he had destroyed them. He did not cooperate with the international community to ease their fears about his ability to provide WMDs to the international underground of terrorism.

Hussein had attacked four nations during his tenure. Iran, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Israel were each the recipients of his military efforts. He was directly responsible for around 1.5 million dead Iranians, Iraqis, Kuwaities and probably others. He had used chemical weapons against his own people. He had slaughtered his own citizens for his and his son's personal enjoyment.

It's rather comical to watch people try to make the case that this was a preemption against Hussein. Frankly it was an action that was long long long overdue.

The international community is a fuzzy logic disaster zone. The United Nations actually sends people into the U.S. to investigate crimes against humanity, but can't quite make up it's mind if Hussein was justifiably removed, or just a victim.

A pox on those who haven't the tools to discern the truth of this.


12 posted on 07/24/2004 8:23:55 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (Fox News is Fair and Balanced. Move-on.org is Bare and Imbalanced.)
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To: churchillbuff
Unfortunately, this opinion piece discounts the most recent revelations, as published by the 9/11 Commission, that provide solid ties between Saddam and alQaeda. That terrorists and the government of a country were allied together to harm the U.S. constitutes much more than a suspicion of possible harm. Iraq was a source of harm truly done.

Secondly, and I get very tired of saying this, Saddam was plainly in violation of its agreements to allow inspections of Iraq's weapons manufacturing capabilities. Failure to comply triggered consequences that, if not fulfilled, would have signalled a failure of resolution to the allies of terror worldwide. The war on terror had to include Iraq, in other words, to make it effective.

Finally, Iraq is not a disaster. The good things that have developed already from Saddam's defeat are not reported, intentionally. Worldwide, the press largely allies itself with liberofascist sentiment that opposes individual liberty and supports centralized control of the lives of the masses, instead. The defeat of President Bush is the active goal of most news organizations, since he is the enemy of socialism and the suppression of liberty it requiries.

13 posted on 07/24/2004 8:25:34 AM PDT by TheGeezer (If only I had skin as thick as Ann Coulter, and but half her intelligence...)
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To: vbmoneyspender
once and for all by demonstrating to every thug on the face of the earth that if you attack American citizens, the United States will respond and you will end up like Hussein did

Made a believer out of that Libyan idiot didn't it?

14 posted on 07/24/2004 8:26:00 AM PDT by Graybeard58
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To: churchillbuff
"Insiders have testified that Bush came to the White House much more interested in Saddam than Osama bin Laden and in the days following September 11 the White House was intent on finding Saddam's hand in the destruction of the Twin Towers."


You mean to more accurately say "supporters of Saddam and that Oil for rotten Food program"!
15 posted on 07/24/2004 8:27:55 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: churchillbuff

The best comparison for the pre-emption doctrine is the concept of self-defense.

If someone is trying to kill injure you, or is making the appearance of an attempt to kill or injure you, you do not wait for them to fire the first shot (that is, if you want to live). You take them down, before they get a chance to kill or injure you.


16 posted on 07/24/2004 8:32:28 AM PDT by punster
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To: churchillbuff
The old rules, which might or might not have made preemption out of bounds (we did after all take on Algeria, Morocco and Vichy in 1942 and your namesake blew the hell out of the French fleet with only a preemptive justification -to prevent it from going over to the Germans), have been swept aside.

They have been swept aside by a foe who just does not play by the old rules and is not even rational. He is suicidal. So, we could contain international communism with its nukes because it was rational even though it was evil. That foe would shrink from mass murder because it rationally wanted to avoid its own destruction. The Islamo-terrorist is not so deterred so he must be denied the nukes which he will surely use on us even if their use would assure his own destruction.

When I say that the foe is not rational, I do not just mean he is suicidal/homicidal but that he does not manage data rationally. He is superstitious, and has no acquaintance with the scientific method. He despises it. So he lives in a world of unreality and sees the world as one giant conspiracy. His management of data and his reaction to them is bizarre, not just strange to western eyes, but utterly alien and dangerous.

Preemption is a doctrine, now unfortunately discredited by a fluke -no WMDs were found- which will be promptly rehabilitated and vigorously applied as soon as these irrational terrorists commit mass murder again in the homeland because preemptin is the only effective option.
17 posted on 07/24/2004 8:33:02 AM PDT by nathanbedford
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To: churchillbuff
The Gulf War never actually ended. A ceasefire had been called, with Saddam "agreeing" to the conditions. He failed to meet those conditions during the intervening years and hostilities were again begun, based on his blatant violation of its terms, and of many UN resolutions.

So much for Roughan's lame theory.

18 posted on 07/24/2004 8:34:45 AM PDT by savedbygrace
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To: Libertarianize the GOP; churchillbuff
There had been a perpetual state of war between Iraq and the US for a dozen years.

If Bush had only used that as justification all along!

Saddam could've been held for violating the terms of the surrender and it could've merely been addy'd as "Gulf War Part B".

19 posted on 07/24/2004 8:37:20 AM PDT by sam_paine (X .................................)
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To: churchillbuff; MeekOneGOP; Howlin
What a bunch of hogwash.

President Bush's doctrine of pre-emption is EXACTLY what a civilized nation should be doing against terrorists and against those who aid, harbor, abet, etc., those or similar terrorists.

The president's invasion of Iraq was justified by the Sept 18, 2001 Joint Congressional resolution to fight terrorism. In that resolution the president was authorized to attack any individual, organization, or nation that aided, harbored, or assisted the terrorists or connected international terrorists.

As the 9/11 commission pointed out.....Saddam was up to his eyeballs with that very same terrorist organization.

And IF the only WMDs he possessed were those 2 dozen sarin shells and those few liters of anthrax that have been found so far, those are more than enough to launch terror on our shores against a jam-packed crowd such as one might find at a Super Bowl or NCAA Final Four game. Tens of thousands could die.

Our president assessed the risk, found it unacceptable, and launched an attack.

Bravo to President Bush!

Contempt to the naysayers in posted articles such as these and to the moderate, tolerated trolls on FR.

20 posted on 07/24/2004 8:37:56 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army and Supporting Bush/Cheney 2004!)
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