Posted on 07/18/2004 11:04:36 AM PDT by Mulder
FAIRFAX, Va. (AP) - Carrying a weapon in public is legal in Virginia, but it's also upsetting to some. One restaurant chain owner had employees at his four northern Virginia shops post signs last week prohibiting firearms and declaring themselves a "safe zone." Kevin M. Tracy, director of operations for The Bungalow, said the restaurants banned gun-toting customers in March after a man with a firearm strapped to his hip sat down in its Franconia restaurant and ordered a drink. The man properly asserted that Virginia law allows him to openly carry his weapon.
But Tracy thinks guns, with the exception of those carried by police officers, have no place in his restaurants. "People change when they have alcohol," Tracy told The Washington Post. "I think people make too many bad judgments. I've had people who were perfectly wonderful snap."
Virginia residents must have permits to carry concealed weapons, which are prohibited by law from establishments that serve alcohol -- but guns openly displayed are permitted.
Still, restaurant and other business owners in the state have the right to ban customers carrying weapons - both openly carried and concealed - on their property, said Tom Lisk, general counsel for the Virginia Hospitality & Travel Association. Establishments can either post a notice or approach customers directly, he said, and people who violate the notice can be prosecuted under a trespass statute.
Tim Murtaugh, a spokesman for Virginia Attorney General Jerry W. Kilgore, said his office could not comment on whether businesses may legally ban patrons carrying guns, because it requires an "interpretation of law" that could not immediately be provided.
Many residents didn't know they had the right to pack a pistol in public until recent incidents in northern Virginia shops and restaurants. Fairfax police have said that residents have been spotted in the county with guns strapped to their hips three times in recent weeks.
Police said a group of men openly carrying guns at a Champps restaurant in Reston last month prompted a 911 call. Three days after that, an officer spotted a couple packing pistols at Reston Town Center. The instances involved members of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, an organization of thousands of gun owners statewide, according to Philip Van Cleave, the group's president.
Jim Snyder, 54, of the Kingstowne area, one of the gun owners spotted at Champps, said there's an unfair perception that he and his brethren are prone to violence. He carries his Colt .45 for protection, he said.
"I'm definitely not a wannabe Rambo," said Snyder, who does not have a concealed weapons permit and must carry his gun openly. "I'd rather skulk away from a confrontation than go in. This is a tool of last resort."
The issue is expected to come up for debate in the General Assembly next year. Some lawmakers who share Tracy's concern said the debate, as in recent years, is likely to center on whether patrons should be allowed to carry guns in restaurants, such as The Bungalow, that serve alcohol.
State Sen. Janet D. Howell (D-Fairfax) said she'll reintroduce a bill that would prohibit openly carried guns anywhere alcohol is served.
"I think that any reasonable person would agree that alcohol and guns don't mix," Howell said. "It's better to make sure that nothing happens than be sorry afterward."
Jim Sollo, president of Virginians Against Handgun Violence, said his group believes the combination of guns and alcohol will eventually lead to trouble. He's counting on the recent episodes to stir up support for Howell's legislation next year.
"We think open carrying is dangerous. Sooner or later one of these guys is going to do something stupid or an unfortunate accident is going to happen," Sollo said.
But Van Cleave, a former Texas deputy sheriff who said most gun owners are law-abiding citizens, stressed that restaurant and other business owners already can bar weapons from their businesses if they choose. He said his members respect those choices and are advised to "politely leave" if asked.
Mike Stollenwerk, the man who was asked to leave The Bungalow that March evening, said he often openly carries his weapon in restaurants and "if people feel uncomfortable I've never noticed it."
Actually, the trend is going the other way. We now have CCW nearly nationwide. The next step is open carry nationwide. Alaska did this last year, and the New Hampshire House passed this earlier this year.
People just aren't going to ever be comfortable around someone with a weapon out in the open.
That's a very small minority. Most business in Virginia and elsewhere don't ban carry, and most people don't call 911 when they see someone open carrying. As more people carry openly, the sheeple will become acclimated to it.
The important thing is for Freedom-minded folks not to get all defensive about it. That's what the statists want you to do.
It seems to me that it should be legal to carry anywhere as long as it is concealed.
Constitutionally, it IS legal to carry open or concealed anywhere, anytime. I personally prefer concealed carry in crowded areas, but open carry is more comfortable, especially here in Florida.
avoids scaring the women and children and protects rights
Using that rationale, would it be okay if the state required certain "minority group" to disguise themselves to look like the majority so they wouldn't scare mindless soccer moms?
The purpose of America is not to "avoid scaring women". If they don't like Americans carrying firearms openly, then maybe they should move to China or some other hellhole where only the military and police have guns.
Any criminal wanting to carry is going to conceal anyway, so making that illegal only hurts the law abiding.
Yep.
Gee what a stupid post, Cops are trained in proper handling of firearms, there is no evidence that some idiot walking into a business with an open carry loaded weapon is no more than some wild west, gun slinging wannabe. You don't like a business banning gun slingers?, go get a concealed permit!
Leave yo' shootin' iron at the door pardner.
If you don't drink, why go to bars? Intoxicated folk who open carry are easily disarmed. Also i can imagine a business owners insurance company finding out he allows open carry of loaded firearms in his establishment, and thus his insurance premiums rocketing out of control, or his insurance being canceled outright. ONLY MORONS CARRY OPEN WEAPONS INTO BARS!
You mean like the DEA agent that had a negligent discharge in a school here in Orlando? Of the Air Marshall that left his gun in a bathroom on a flight? Or the cop that shot himself in the butt the other day?
If they are "trained", many of them are apparently slow learners.
there is no evidence that some idiot walking into a business with an open carry loaded weapon is no more than some wild west, gun slinging wannabe
So what? I wish more Americans would openly carry. (I'm also assuming that your arrogrant characterization doesn't apply to cops?)
As for "evidence", there is NONE that states Americans openly carrying cause problems. If this was the case, then Vermont would have the highest crime rate, since anyone can carry openly or concealed there without a "permit".
You don't like a business banning gun slingers?, go get a concealed permit!
In Virginia, you can't "legally" carry concealed in a restuarant. Which is many Virginians openly carry there, since it's not illegal.
If a property owner asks someone to leave and they refuse, I believe that is trespassing and the police are within their bounds to intervene.
Consider two scenarios:
1. You enter a restaurant with your dog. A sign says "No dogs allowed." The manager asks you to leave but you refuse to do so.
2. You enter a restaurant with your holstered gun in plain view. The manager tells you guns are not allowed and asks you to leave. Without threatening or touching the gun, you refuse.
Which will get the bigger punishment?
Really? I see guys carrying guns in the open all the time refilling ATMs. The people with the money are not so stupid as to leave any doubt that they will fight to prevent the theft of their money. Sounds reasonable to me.
Sometimes you're out with other folks that want to go there after a movie or resturant or whatever. Also, the way many state edicts are written, portions of resturants qualify as bars. So while it's "legal" to carry in Outback Steakhouse, it's "illegal" to carry in the area of the restuarant which is a bar. Which is another stupid law.
Intoxicated folk who open carry are easily disarmed
Why do you so arrogantly assume that anyone who open carries into a restuarant gets drunk?
Also i can imagine a business owners insurance company finding out he allows open carry of loaded firearms in his establishment, and thus his insurance premiums rocketing out of control, or his insurance being canceled outright
I really don't care what the insurance companies think. If "insurance companies" were allowed to set policies, there would be NO guns anwhere. Screw them.
But back to the original point, citizens peaceable armed in places that serve alcohol isn't a problem. There is no evidence to the contrary.
Both should get the same "punishment" which is criminal trespass. The fact that a gun was involved should have no bearing on the outcome.
And in both cases, the "tresspass" charge should only apply after being verbally asked to leave by the business owner, or his representative.
Restaurants and bars may also mandate a dress code. What’s the difference?
Err maybe because you are more likely to get intoxicated in a bar than at church. Sure the gun toting idiot may not be intoxicated, but what about the pissed off patron who is drunk 5 feet away, and has his eye on your weapon, to do harm to someone else in the bar? Oh and if your going to tell me there are no gun fights at bars, come visit here in Tampa sometime;lol...nice try though. And when your a business owner and your insurance company demands their new higer premium, because for some idiotic reason you actually stupid enough to allow strangers to enter your establishment with loaded open guns, just write on the insurance premium bill " I don't care what you think...screw you"..
So is this bozo also planning to ban cars from restuarant parking lots since "guns and cars" don't mix?
Many are very good with guns. Many are not. Just like private citizens. Just because someone is a cop doesn't make them an expert at guns, and just because someone isn't a cop doesn't make them incompetent with guns.
then why are business owners and patrons calling the police, and complaining when seeing openly armed folks in their presence????
Because they are arrogant idiots that don't believe their patrons have a Right to self defense. But this is a small minority. Most business owners don't call 911 when someone is openly carrying, and many of those that have posted "no guns" signs have wound up taking them down after a few protests.
Care to address the insurance issue???
My Right to self defense trumps what some beancounter thinks "policy" should be. Period.
If insurance companies ran things, guns, cars, ice cream, and sex would be banned. So their opinion really doesn't carry much weight with me.
guess you never owned a business, try learning about liability
I'd be more concerned about liability when a criminal comes in and massacres unarmed citizens, than I would be about Americans peaceably and openly carrying firearms.
Rest assured if there were two malls in town, one allowing the open carry of loaded weapons by idiot gun slingers, the other banning weapons, guess which mall 99% of parents would NOT allow their children to shop at?
And guess which one Al Queda would hit.
If there were a mall that "allowed" open carry, I'd definately shop there since all the stinking liberals would avoid it, and all my "gun nut" buddies would be there.
Once a few thugs robbed the "no guns" mall, I think most parents would rather see their kids at the mall where open carry was "allowed".
Business owners can set whatever policies they want.
But these "policies" have NO legal standing, nor should they. The only exception to this is when they ask to leave, and you refuse. Then it's criminal trespass.
I am on your side, but I don't think it is realistic. Maybe so, but it still seems to me that the law is bass ackwards. It is concealed carry that should be legal for everyone, but open carry that should be restricted.
It is a utopian idea to force people to get used to seeing ordinary people with firearms strapped to their hips all over the place in 2004. Maybe it is worth a try, but this guy says you aren't going to see large numbers of citizens doing this on a regular basis.
"...the police are within their bounds to intervene. "
Then the statement "The government has no business either helping or hindering him to do so" must be incorrect as it stands.
"Which will get the bigger punishment?"
Off point.
The only exception to this is when they ask to leave, and you refuse. Then it's criminal trespass.
§18.2-308: No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia, nothing herein shall prohibit any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit.
§15.2-915: No person may be prosecuted or convicted of a violation of any ordinance regulating the possession, carrying, or transportation of a firearm if he is in possession of the firearm not in violation of any provision of Title 18.2 and he has a valid concealed handgun permit issued pursuant to § 18.2-308 or otherwise possessing, carrying, or transporting the firearm in a lawful manner.
§18.2-308: Private property when prohibited by the owner of the property, or where posted as prohibited.
§18.2-283: Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.
§18.2-283.1: Courthouse.
§18.2-308.1: School property.
§18.2-287.01: Carrying weapon in air carrier airport terminal.
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