Posted on 07/09/2004 9:19:09 AM PDT by tpaine
"Such laws [outlawing prostitution] cannot be enforced without violations of other individual rights."
"and I have no problems with Monroe Counties actions."
The Monroe county actions enforced the prohibition of prostitution, which you said couldn't be enforced without violations of individual rights, and yet you have no problems with those actions. You're a mess. You're all over the place, like a caged thrashing animal.
The Monroe county actions are not attempts to "regulate" prostitution. They are prohibiting it.
You forgot that a cop can get a search warrant to stay within compliance of the 4th Amendment, when enforcing laws that prohibit prostitution.
A third grader would have a better understanding of the law than you have.
-- they can't peep into your windows at night to see if you're trading money for sex. This is the protection that you and tpaine are depending on.
Exactly hugh, 'laws' prohibiting trading money for sex cannot be enforced without violations of other individual rights, just as you admit. Thus, I have no problems with Monroe Counties actions enforcing valid laws regulating commercial sex for hire operations.
The Monroe county actions enforced the prohibition of prostitution,
Not so hugh. - According to your quote, this was a commercial type operation.
which you said couldn't be enforced without violations of individual rights,
No hugh, YOU said that, just above.
and yet you have no problems with those actions. You're a mess. You're all over the place, like a caged thrashing animal.
Amusing.. -- Looks like you're thrashing about hugh, not me.
The Monroe county actions are not attempts to "regulate" prostitution. They are prohibiting it.
-- "they can't peep into your windows at night to see if you're trading money for sex", hugh. -- Nope, no prohibition.
You forgot that a cop can get a search warrant to stay within compliance of the 4th Amendment, when enforcing laws that prohibit prostitution.
I forget nothing, hugh. I'm like a "caged thrashing animal", have you forgotten?
A third grader would have a better understanding of the law than you have
Juvenile comment. Get some new lines.
Actually, you are wrong. VERY wrong. Our governing bodies were to be those of ENUMERATED powers, not limitless amorphous "what ever we say we can do" type powers. The "legitimacy" comes from a solid contract with "We the People" for very specific functions. As I said, if a people of a State pass an Amendment to their Constitution to allow a government a certain power, and it doesn't violate the US Constitution, then that government can make laws and prohibitions in that area.
This isn't a hard concept to grasp here. Trial lawyers, activists judges, and power hungry legislators would have it otherwise.
Which are you?
Well there's nothing in the VA Constitution specifically authorizing the Legislature to outlaw prostitution, or beastiality for that matter, and the VA General Assembly does it.
Where do they get their authority to do so?
"The Monroe county actions enforced the prohibition of prostitution, " me
"Not so hugh. - According to your quote, this was a commercial type operation." tpaine
You're insane.
You're simply denying the facts of your own post on the Monroe County actions.
You're insane.
The State of Va gets its power to write criminal law from its 'police power', hughie.
_____________________________________
Police Powers: Model and Reality
The imaginary model of limited government in the American Federal system deviates from reality. The deflection from truth occurs primarily as a result of the concept of police power.
The model envisions a Federal government possessing only those powers inherent in sovereign nations.
Each state government is assumed to act in a like limited capacity, the limitations flowing both from the National and the particular state constitutions.
All powers not specifically delegated to the state or the Federal government dwell in the individual acting human being. Man is free to do anything not prohibited by state or Federal law, and neither state nor Federal law encroaches upon voluntary action, except in the specific areas reserved in writing to the government in the fundamental charters.
Contrast reality. The government of the United States exercises all powers specifically granted to it by the Constitution and all powers implied from that document.
At the same time, the individual states appear as the Federal government in microcosm with one important distinction:
--- while the Federal government purports, however fallaciously, to be a government of limited powers, the states do not, for they contain the elastic police powers, the great reserve powers of each state.
In legal theory, the states possess all of the ordinary legislative powers exercised by the British Parliament at the time of the American Revolution except as restricted by state and Federal constitutions.
However, no government and no state possesses any "rights".
Only individuals possess rights; any belief that states have rights involves a much too organic view of government.
The state exists not to perpetuate itself in power but to secure the inalienable rights of individuals residing in that territory to life, liberty and property.
It remains to review in cursory fashion the objects to which the police power is often directed: public safety, health, order, morals, and welfare.
In each category lurks the very real danger of the use of police powers to curb creative endeavor beyond the proper scope of state authority.
In the name of public order, the state may circumscribe or wholly proscribe gambling, drunkenness or public meetings; in fact, such repressions affect the free flow of ideas and action whether or not the majority agrees with the value of the action.
In the name of public morals, the government penalizes indecency, adultery, prostitution and "immorality," matters much better left to the decision of adult participants.
In the name of public welfare, the state plunders some and gives to others, a most devastating kind of immorality undeserving of the name of charity.
In each instance where the state exceeds its proper perimeters of preventing force and fraud and providing common justice, the application of police powers destroys human liberty and nurtures tyranny.
Excerpts from:
Police Power: Sovereignty's Sledgehammer
Address:http://www.janda.org/b20/Lectures/Week%203/PolicePower.htm
And your insane point is?
It's become impossible to make a point to you hughie.
"It's become impossible to make a point to you hughie."
Well you've made that point PERFECTLY clear.
Superior firepower and teh complacency of the People. Just because they do it, does not make it right, legal, ethical or just.
Well there's nothing in the VA Constitution specifically authorizing the Legislature to outlaw prostitution, or beastiality for that matter, and the VA General Assembly does it.
Where do they get their authority to do so?
424 H.Akston
_____________________________________
The State of Va gets its power to write criminal law from its 'police power', hughie.
428 tpaine
______________________________________
Dead Corpse wrote:
Superior firepower and the complacency of the People.
Just because they do it, does not make it right, legal, ethical or just.
______________________________________
Exactly DC..
We allow States to infringe upon our most basic rights on small matters like 'outlawing' prostitution, -- and the next thing we know, complacent clowns like hughie, robbie & mith get the insane idea they have the power to prohibit guns.
Weird people.
Which, oddly enough, is more than enough justification to go out and buy another case of ammo. As they say, "the Second Amendment protects all the rest..."
When are you going to sue West Virginia for making this law?
§61-8-5. Houses of ill fame and assignation; penalties; jurisdiction of courts.
(b) Any person who shall engage in prostitution, lewdness, or assignation, or who shall solicit, induce, entice, or procure another to commit an act of prostitution, lewdness, or assignation; or who shall reside in, enter, or remain in any house, place, building, hotel, tourist camp, or other structure, or enter or remain in any vehicle, trailer, or other conveyance for the purpose of prostitution, lewdness, or assignation; or who shall aid, abet, or participate in the doing of any of the acts herein prohibited, shall, upon conviction for the first offense under this section, be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for a period of not less than sixty days nor more than six months, and by a fine of not less than fifty dollars and not to exceed one hundred dollars; and upon conviction for the second offense under this section, be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for a period of not less than six months nor more than one year, and by a fine of not less than one hundred dollars and not to exceed two hundred fifty dollars, and upon conviction for any subsequent offense under this section shall be punished by imprisonment in the penitentiary for not less than one year nor more than three years.
You probably don't realize it, tpaine, but the police power in WV is delegated to the State by the people in their Constitution.
These words right here:
"Among the powers so reserved to the states is the exclusive regulation of their own internal government and police;" - Article I-2
are in their Constitution.
The people of WV delegated, specifically, not even implied, the police power to their state.
Here's another teaching point. When you said:
"No State has ever been given the power to dictate prohibitions on 'sinful behaviors' or on 'evil objects'."
That in itself was an absurd statement, since the definition of those things are so subjective, plus it's patently false, since the States actually do have the power to outlaw beastiality and cruelty to animals, which I'm sure you've heard about, which perhaps even you would consider "sinful". Perhaps.
And the WV Constitution also permits the State to outlaw things that it and it's people decide aren't virtuous enough to have around:
"3-20. Preservation of free government.
Free government and the blessings of liberty can be preserved to any people only by a firm adherence to justice, moderation, temperance, frugality and virtue, and by a frequent recurrence to fundamental principles."
So if prostitution is not virtuous, in the opinion of the State of West Virginia's people, representatives, and judges, their State has yet even more latitude to outlaw prostitution.
And that gets to my earlier point. What you think about prostitution, is utterly irrelevant to another state. That's why you'll lose when you take VA, NC, SC and WV to court for outlawing prostitution. But please let me know when you file. I want to watch the circus. I love to watch busybodies get shut down. (as you can tell)
Now were you trying to make some sort of "point"?
When are you going to sue West Virginia for making this law? §61-8-5. Houses of ill fame and assignation; penalties; jurisdiction of courts.
How dim-witted you are hugh. --- Why should I sue about a perfectly valid state law regulating "Houses of ill fame and assignation"?
Here's another teaching point. When you said:
"No State has ever been given the power to dictate prohibitions on 'sinful behaviors' or on 'evil objects'."
That in itself was an absurd statement, since the definition of those things are so subjective,
Of course they're subjective. Makes it impossible to define in order to prohibit. You've inadvertently made part of my point, hughie.
plus it's patently false, since the States actually do have the power to outlaw beastiality and cruelty to animals, which I'm sure you've heard about, which perhaps even you would consider "sinful". Perhaps.
We agreed that bestiality IS cruelty to animals on another thread. So? Of course such behavior is regulated by law.
And the WV Constitution also permits the State to outlaw things that it and it's people decide aren't virtuous enough to have around:
"3-20. Preservation of free government. Free government and the blessings of liberty can be preserved to any people only by a firm adherence to justice, moderation, temperance, frugality and virtue, and by a frequent recurrence to fundamental principles."
You're dreaming hugh. -- That phrase doesn't permit "outlawing things".
So if prostitution is not virtuous, in the opinion of the State of West Virginia's people, representatives, and judges, their State has yet even more latitude to outlaw prostitution. And that gets to my earlier point. What you think about prostitution, is utterly irrelevant to another state. That's why you'll lose when you take VA, NC, SC and WV to court for outlawing prostitution. But please let me know when you file. I want to watch the circus. I love to watch busybodies get shut down. (as you can tell) Now were you trying to make some sort of "point"?
Letting you rant on makes my points better than you know, my boy. Keep up the good work.
You've exceeded your number of allowed quibbles.
A state also has the power to outlaw prostitution. - H.Akston
"No hugh" - tpaine
You are reduced to claiming that no state can outlaw prostitution! - H.Akston
"That is a constitutional fact." - tpaine
West Virginia has outlawed prostitution. - H.Akston
West Virginia Code:
§61-8-5. Houses of ill fame and assignation; penalties; jurisdiction of courts.
(b) Any person who shall engage in prostitution, lewdness, or assignation, or who shall solicit, induce, entice, or procure another to commit an act of prostitution, lewdness, or assignation; or who shall reside in, enter, or remain in any house, place, building, hotel, tourist camp, or other structure, or enter or remain in any vehicle, trailer, or other conveyance for the purpose of prostitution, lewdness, or assignation; or who shall aid, abet, or participate in the doing of any of the acts herein prohibited, shall, upon conviction for the first offense under this section, be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for a period of not less than sixty days nor more than six months, and by a fine of not less than fifty dollars and not to exceed one hundred dollars; and upon conviction for the second offense under this section, be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for a period of not less than six months nor more than one year, and by a fine of not less than one hundred dollars and not to exceed two hundred fifty dollars, and upon conviction for any subsequent offense under this section shall be punished by imprisonment in the penitentiary for not less than one year nor more than three years.
"The State of Va gets its power to write criminal law from its 'police power', hughie. " - tpaine
WVa's police power comes from the WV Constitution. - H.Akston, teacher of tpaine.
West Virginia Constitution:
"Among the powers so reserved to the states is the exclusive regulation of their own internal government and police;" - Article I-2
http://www.terranova.net/Sheriffs-Report/
The owner of an county-wide escort business run out of a home on Big Pine Key pled guilty May 27th to four misdemeanor charges and two felony charges relating to his occupation. 48 year old Michael Knezevich, owner of the Heavenly Bodies Escort Service, was arrested April 14th after he was caught during a prostitution sting in Marathon. He was charged with forcing a person to become a prostitute, deriving support from the proceeds of prostitution, offering to procure a person for the purpose of prostitution and with transporting a person for the purpose of prostitution. Sheriff's detectives with the Special Investigations Division were investigating a number of complaints from citizens about the escort service operated by Knezevich, and other escort businesses operating in the County. On April 28th, detectives served a search warrant at his home on Lobstertail Road on Big Pine Key. They found evidence that he was operating the escort service from that location, and found recording devices set up in several areas where it appears he may have been video taping sexual encounters without the knowledge of his partners. They also found two firearms in the house. At the time, Knezevich had a restraining order filed against him which prohibited him from possessing firearms, so he was charged with contempt of court and the guns were seized. He appeared in court on May 27th and pled guilty to a total of four misdemeanor charges and two felony charges. He was sentenced to 10 days in the county jail and received four years of probation. As a part of the plea agreement, he must also sell his home and move out of the county within 90 days. One of the conditions of his probation is that he not engage in any type of escort business and that he have no contact with any victims or witnesses in the cases in question.
"Such laws [outlawing prostitution] cannot be enforced without violations of other individual rights." - tpaine
I can't wait for the court case! Please let me know when you file!
___________________________________
Babbling on does not change our Constitutions BOR's restrictions on our States, hugh.
I suggest you learn to live with them.
Again, I don't deny this. We're in agreement that the Constitution requires CA judges to adhere to the the 2nd Amendment.
Our Constitution requires CA judges to adhere to ALL of our Amendments & ALL of our rights, enumerated or not. -- You are irrationally denying that clear fact, hugh.
I didn't know making moonshine was a self-evident inalianable human right. A state does indeed have that power, since it's not enumerated.
We have the right to preserve food by making booze, beer or wine from our surplus corn, fruit or whatever; -- thus your ignorance on the subject of unenumerated rights is obvious.
Our self evident inalienable human rights are the same in any State of our Union. So says our supremacy clause & BOR's.
A state also has the power to outlaw prostitution. Many states do, but Nevadans might think it's an unalienable right for a woman to make money from her body as she chooses.
No hugh, States have the power to reasonably ~regulate~ the commercial aspects of prostitution. It's an unavoidable fact of life hugh, that a woman has an inalienable right to make money from using her body as she so chooses. -- We all do. --- The State can only TRY to regulate the more commercial aspects of such 'sinful' behavior.
It can't win, because individual rights get in its way.
-----------------------------------
This exchange above is where you started your prostitution rant.
-- Unable to win your point on booze prohibition, you've switched to insisting that prohibitions on prostitution make your point.
In effect, you're insisting that "A state has the power to outlaw prostitution", because it's NOT "an unalienable right for a woman to make money from her body as she chooses."
-- Even though you admit that in Nevada, a woman does have "an unalienable right for a woman to make money from her body as she chooses."
Hugh, I suggest you think a bit more about the logic of your position.
You keep moving the target, as a thrasher will do, so here's a recap of the essence of why you are wrong:
A state also has the power to outlaw prostitution. - H.Akston
"No hugh" - tpaine
You are reduced to claiming that no state can outlaw prostitution! - H.Akston
"That is a constitutional fact." - tpaine
West Virginia has outlawed prostitution. - H.Akston
West Virginia Code:
§61-8-5. Houses of ill fame and assignation; penalties; jurisdiction of courts.
(b) Any person who shall engage in prostitution, lewdness, or assignation, or who shall solicit, induce, entice, or procure another to commit an act of prostitution, lewdness, or assignation; or who shall reside in, enter, or remain in any house, place, building, hotel, tourist camp, or other structure, or enter or remain in any vehicle, trailer, or other conveyance for the purpose of prostitution, lewdness, or assignation; or who shall aid, abet, or participate in the doing of any of the acts herein prohibited, shall, upon conviction for the first offense under this section, be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for a period of not less than sixty days nor more than six months, and by a fine of not less than fifty dollars and not to exceed one hundred dollars; and upon conviction for the second offense under this section, be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for a period of not less than six months nor more than one year, and by a fine of not less than one hundred dollars and not to exceed two hundred fifty dollars, and upon conviction for any subsequent offense under this section shall be punished by imprisonment in the penitentiary for not less than one year nor more than three years.
"The State of Va gets its power to write criminal law from its 'police power', hughie. " - tpaine
WVa's police power comes from the WV Constitution. - H.Akston, teacher of tpaine.
West Virginia Constitution:
"Among the powers so reserved to the states is the exclusive regulation of their own internal government and police;" - Article I-2
http://www.terranova.net/Sheriffs-Report/
The owner of an county-wide escort business run out of a home on Big Pine Key pled guilty May 27th to four misdemeanor charges and two felony charges relating to his occupation. 48 year old Michael Knezevich, owner of the Heavenly Bodies Escort Service, was arrested April 14th after he was caught during a prostitution sting in Marathon. He was charged with forcing a person to become a prostitute, deriving support from the proceeds of prostitution, offering to procure a person for the purpose of prostitution and with transporting a person for the purpose of prostitution. Sheriff's detectives with the Special Investigations Division were investigating a number of complaints from citizens about the escort service operated by Knezevich, and other escort businesses operating in the County. On April 28th, detectives served a search warrant at his home on Lobstertail Road on Big Pine Key. They found evidence that he was operating the escort service from that location, and found recording devices set up in several areas where it appears he may have been video taping sexual encounters without the knowledge of his partners. They also found two firearms in the house. At the time, Knezevich had a restraining order filed against him which prohibited him from possessing firearms, so he was charged with contempt of court and the guns were seized. He appeared in court on May 27th and pled guilty to a total of four misdemeanor charges and two felony charges. He was sentenced to 10 days in the county jail and received four years of probation. As a part of the plea agreement, he must also sell his home and move out of the county within 90 days. One of the conditions of his probation is that he not engage in any type of escort business and that he have no contact with any victims or witnesses in the cases in question.
"Such laws [outlawing prostitution] cannot be enforced without violations of other individual rights." - tpaine
Nonsense. "Such laws" were enforced in Monroe County WVA with due process of law and all rights protected.
VA, WV, NC, and SC have all outlawed prostitution, which means they have made prostitution illegal. It doesn't mean they have "regulated" it. "Regulating" something means you tolerate the practice, but control it. Making something illegal, that is "outlawing" it, means you don't tolerate it at all. Many states have outlawed prostitution, constitutionally and legally.
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