Posted on 07/07/2004 9:23:32 AM PDT by milford421
This is from a muslim question and answer forum regarding muslims and the armed forces in non-muslim countries.
Pay particular attention to the edict that muslims are forbidden to fight muslims under any circumstances...
Can't the same thing be said of true adherents of any theistic religion?
No, American Christians speaking in these terms see that they have a responsibility to work and make it more Godly and Holy. They are also among those most likely to take up arms and defend this country which has given them the freedom of religion and speech. They are the very ones who are most appreciative of the freedoms that this country affords.
They are Americans speaking as Americans who love their country, not Aliens speaking of the Great Satan who would like to see this nation destroyed.
The majority of muslims in the US didn't immigrate, they are natural born US Citizens.
Ok, but who does a Christian answer to? If it came down to it, and their choice was to obey the dictates of the State, or to follow the Word of God, what would they choose? And a followup question would be, Would all Christians answer the same?
Can't the same thing be said of true adherents of any theistic religion?
How many religions, in their holy books, endorse, encourage and reward deception, violence and warfare as a means of spreading the faith? I think none save islam.
Yes, but Christianity and Judaeism are compatible with the Constitution. Islam is at odds with the Constitution and encourages sedition.
He probably received a promotion with back pay.
Ok, now here's a question I'll just toss out there for fun - Would you say that the way our society is today, with all it's immorality, abortion on demand, Homosexuality, and the like compatible with the Constitution?
I'd have to say that maybe at one time those religions were, but today I'd have to say that the constitution has been twisted and perverted beyond almost all recognition and as a Baptist I find my religion to be less and less compatible as days go by... How about you? ;0)
You are free to put a sack over wife if it makes you feel better.
That's a very fair question.
Christians are always supposed to follow the Word of God. If the State requires that one do something in conflict with that, one should refuse. I think one of the aspects of this as an Americans is that, because of the "We The People" idea of our government, we see the government, not as The State, but as a reflection of us. We have always wanted the government to reflect the goodness of the American People.
If one sees that government headed in the wrong direction, there are several forms of recourse: through voting, advocating through freedom of speech, and civil disobedience to name a few.
But I think the key is that we see this government as an extension of ourselves, and we are responsible for its actions. That's the idea of a democracy, that the state is acting in accordance with our wishes. It is not an extension of a Religion, but an extension of the values and actions of those individuals who are composed of many religions, origins, and races.
This is where I think that many of us have difficulty with the Official Muslim Edicts and Fatwas.
They don't seem to differentiate between values and identities.
The tenets are All Muslims = Good but All Infidels = Bad, strictly by identity not by action. Therefore, one does not judge someone by their actions, but by their identity.
This is a way of thinking that Americans have tried to overcome, in fact, I think it an American ideal to judge people by their actions, not by their group. It is distressing when groups of people are judged. I don't think most Americans had opinions one way or the other about Muslims until 9-11. Even then, we very much tried to deal with them as individuals, not as a group. We think other peoples/groups think in the same way.
But then we find that Muslims don't think in the same way.
Islam has group identity thinking. Ones loyalties are NOT to those people whose actions are right, even if they are of a different religion. They are to those who have the same group identity, irregardless of their actions. This flies in the face of what it is to be an American.
Japanese Americans during WWII renounced this group identity, and threw their lot in with their fellow Americans going on to be some of the most tenacious fighters we had. But the US military placed them only in the European Theater, as there was still uncertainty as to their loyalty, among other reasons. This was a wise and rational thing to do.
Some Muslims are throwing their lot in with America as well, but it flies in the face of the tenets of their religion to be on the side of Good Infidels making war on Bad Muslims.
Goodbye.
I would differentiate between the Culture which has become depraved, and the Constitution, which has been distorted.
When the Judical Elites, back in the 1970s, began to twist that document to support rights that our founding fathers would never agree were Inalienable Rights From Our Creator, that opened the floodgates to the cesspool that our society has become. That was Not done by the Will of the People, but by the Tyranny of the Courts. The threat to our republic is not always from the Mob of the demos but by the Depravity of the Elites.
Your, and my, Baptist religion is still fully compatible with the Constitution as Written.
It's the distortion of that Constitution that has made us feel like aliens in our own land.
But, it should be noted that we didn't deny them the ability to serve.
I know that there are bad muslims out there, and I'm absolutely certain that some are here, and some are in our military. However, I still refuse to "become like them" and see them all as the same. To do so would turn those who support us and serve honorably into our enemy... Something I think that we as a people, and a nation, can ill afford to do.
I just get a little irked when people paint with a broad brush ;0)
Are you asking if all Christians would place their first allegiance to the Word of God rather than to the State ?
Where Christians in this country have seen that the state's laws are wrong, they have fought to change them. From slavery to abortion, those leading the fight in correcting what was seen to be immoral have been Christians.
Even now, there are numerous nurses who have lost their jobs becuase they will not participate in abortions, in abortion education, or in hading out abortio-fascient contraceptives.
On the other hand, there are those people who claim to be Christian who have taken a different view of various issues from slavery to abortion. So many of the moral issues in this country have involved "Christians" working on opposite sides. But it's the freedom to argue out the moral issues, and the freedom to find allies of various religious backgrounds in working out these moral issues, that I think is our strength. I want to find allies based on the Rightness of the Action, not on the Group to which they belong. That's very American.
It flies in the face of what Americans generally believe. I don't like to find myself thinking this way, but I do want myself and my loved ones to be safe.
It would also be to their benfit if the Muslims of this country quit supporting the Whiny Spokesmen that are currently in those positions, and get some who are effusive in their appreciation for this country.
It is always a pleasure to have a decent discussion, rather than a flamefest. Thank you.
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