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The Kerry Affair: What Ratzinger Wanted from the American Bishops (Rome: "REFUSE Eucharist!")
(Italian Paper) L'espresso ^ | 3/7/04 | Sandro Magister

Posted on 07/03/2004 8:15:10 AM PDT by Polycarp IV

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To: sinkspur
Then let Ratzinger force McCarrick to back down.

Ratzinger can't force McCarrick to do anything. A new conservative Pope who actually believes in Catholic Dogma may be able to but Ratzinger can't.

21 posted on 07/03/2004 9:09:28 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: Polycarp IV

When I see Ratzinger's letter in some other venue than an Italian newspaper, I'll concur.


22 posted on 07/03/2004 9:10:06 AM PDT by sinkspur (There's no problem on the inside of a kid that the outside of a dog can't cure.)
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To: sinkspur; Polycarp IV; Aquinasfan; NYer; Desdemona; Salvation; narses
sinkspur wrote: but they do tend to express consensus through those conferences.

What is the relation between the...ahem...consensus of the latest missive on receiving Holy Communion by pro-abortion cheerleaders and the authentic teaching of the Catholic Church??? Can you campaign to harvest embryonic stem cells with wild abandon on Saturday and receive Our Lord on Sunday in good conscience? How does that make ANY sense???

23 posted on 07/03/2004 9:14:05 AM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: sinkspur
When I see Ratzinger's letter in some other venue than an Italian newspaper, I'll concur.

I predict it will generate its own whole news cycle, at least in Catholic circles. The mainstream media won't like this one bit, but if nothing else it may bring out the screaming anti-Rome, anti-Catholic bigots complaining of Romish interference in American politics and bantying about that dread word theocracy.

24 posted on 07/03/2004 9:14:21 AM PDT by Polycarp IV
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To: Polycarp IV
What do you expect from a Church that has been corrupted by Homosexual and Pedifile priests. This Church needs to make a stand but refuses to follow the Bible.

Pray for W and Our Awesome Troops

25 posted on 07/03/2004 9:14:41 AM PDT by bray (Let's win one more for the Gipper)
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To: sinkspur; Polycarp IV
More to the point, what is the canonical status of this latest "consensus"?
26 posted on 07/03/2004 9:15:05 AM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: jwalsh07
A new conservative Pope who actually believes in Catholic Dogma may be able to but Ratzinger can't.

JPII doesn't believe in Catholic Dogma?

Bishops are free to refuse the Eucharist if they choose; that's what the USCCB statement said. It's a prudential judgment, especially in an election year.

The USCCB statement was as forceful a statement as could be issued, without a direct confrontation. The idea that 183 bishops (some very consevertive bishops)are all somehow corrupt on this issue is just nuts.

27 posted on 07/03/2004 9:15:10 AM PDT by sinkspur (There's no problem on the inside of a kid that the outside of a dog can't cure.)
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
More to the point, what is the canonical status of this latest "consensus"?

Bishops are free to refuse, or not refuse.

28 posted on 07/03/2004 9:16:36 AM PDT by sinkspur (There's no problem on the inside of a kid that the outside of a dog can't cure.)
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To: Polycarp IV
MIDI - TAKE THIS JOB AND SHOVE IT

Take this church and shove it...I won't listen anymore
If I want to...to mass I'll be coming...with an intern whore
And if I want to take Communion...just what will you do
Take this church and shove it...I ain't listening to you

Pontiff, dear, my wife's loaded...and she's my only boss
If you try to give me lectures, it will be a total loss
Winning votes is all that matters...the DNC leads the way
So as I watch your lips moving...blah, blah is what you say

Take this church and shove it...I won't listen anymore
If I want to...to mass I'll be coming...with an intern whore
And if I want to take Communion...just what will you do
You'd better take this church and shove it...I ain't listening to you

If I want babies aborted...then that's how it will be
So please just stop your harrassment...it never will influence me
I hope you get what I've been saying...'cause it really isn't too hard
I learned my lessons from my hero...that fat, drunk lifeguard

Take this church and shove it...I won't listen anymore
If I want to...to mass I'll be coming...with an intern whore
And if I want to take Communion...just what will you do
You'd better take this church and shove it...I ain't listening to you

(musical break)

Take this church and shove it...I won't listen anymore
If I want to...to mass I'll be coming...with an intern whore
And if I want to take Communion...just what will you do
Take this church and shove it...I ain't listening to you

Take this church and shove it...I ain't listening to you

29 posted on 07/03/2004 9:18:30 AM PDT by doug from upland (Don't wait until it is too late to stop Hillary -- do something today!)
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To: sinkspur

How does that compare to the canonical status of Ratzinger's clarification? Can a bishop say anything he wants and that's right...i.e., that is the authentic Catholic teaching? Sigerian double-truth theory.


30 posted on 07/03/2004 9:18:48 AM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: sinkspur
Jesuitical answer: It's prudential judgment on a policy of sacramental discipline.
31 posted on 07/03/2004 9:19:50 AM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: sinkspur
Bishops are free to refuse, or not refuse.

Yes, that is their consensus.

But its also open schism.

The question was, "what is the canonical status of this latest "consensus"?

Canonically, it is an openly schismatic and defiant act, no better than any trad schismatic.

32 posted on 07/03/2004 9:20:30 AM PDT by Polycarp IV
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To: sinkspur
JPII doesn't believe in Catholic Dogma?

No,no,no.

JPII has done the Lords work but he no longer has the voice to speak out forcefully. His time, sadly, is past. He is a great man and great Catholic but time has passed him by. It happens to us all.

A new younger Pope can speak out forcefully. What we have now is American Bishops taking a "pro choice" stance vis a vis abortion. Kerry and others can choose to support unlimited abortion laws and still receive the Holy Eucharist. That is the ideology of pro choicers. The Catholic Church really can not be seen to be moving in that direction.

It would split the church IMHO.

33 posted on 07/03/2004 9:21:15 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity; sinkspur; Polycarp IV
Some jesuitical casuists, it seems, are more prudential than others.
34 posted on 07/03/2004 9:21:19 AM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: Polycarp IV

BTTT


35 posted on 07/03/2004 9:23:33 AM PDT by Fiddlstix (This Tagline for sale. (Presented by TagLines R US))
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To: Polycarp IV

1. There is always an element of prudential judgment in applying general principles to specific cases. The science which applies to this relationship is called casuistry (from the Latin for specific cases) and it deservedly has a bad name because it is (and has been) easily abused.

2. That said, in most cases making a prudential judgment is pretty simple. A murderer is a murderer, and must be refused communion until he has confessed and has been absolved, which in itself may be contingent on making reparation and paying a just penalty. The same with a procurer of abortion.

3. So, I would conclude that it IS up to each individual bishop to make a prudential judgment. But any bishop who up and says that it's OK for Kerry to receive communion, or that he is not going to refuse communion to any proabortion politicians, regardless of how deep in the mire they are, is NOT making a proper prudential judgment. He is failing in his job and should be condemned by his fellow bishops and removed by his superiors.

The problem is not in the wording of the bishops' statement or anything of that kind. The problem is that although things have improved somewhat we still have too many bad, weak, incompetent bishops, who wouldn't know what a prudential judgment was if it bit them on the rear end.

What the laity must do is hold their feet to the fire, and make it just as difficult and unpleasant for them to do the wrong thing as the media and the liberals make it for them to do the right thing. In fact, more difficult.


36 posted on 07/03/2004 9:26:26 AM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Polycarp IV
If you look at the discourse of the bishops logically, you will notice more than a little equivocation. Kerry does not merely disagree. He does not merely hold a private opinion in disagreement on an ethical issue of grave matter. Nor does he merely not advance the Catholic position in public. He CAMPAIGNS and promotes with wild-eyed abandon perhaps the greatest and most monstrous abomination of the modern era of godless Frankenstein scientism. He is a cheerleader FOR the culture of death. For creating embryos in labs and slaughtering them for parts. He wants our tax dollars to FUND this abomination. How on earth can any bishop or priest of the Catholic Church say this is OK and fine for such a monster to receive Holy Communion???
37 posted on 07/03/2004 9:29:32 AM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: Polycarp IV
The USCCB voted 183 to 6 NOT to obey this clear definitive demand from Rome. (So what makes the American Catholic church any less schismatic than the SSPX?)

The USCCb needs to be dissolved.

Burke is my bishop. Does this mean we're not in schism?

I know the answer, but this is going to be very confusing to the uncatechized among us. And there are soooo many.

38 posted on 07/03/2004 9:30:15 AM PDT by Desdemona
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
Can you campaign to harvest embryonic stem cells with wild abandon on Saturday and receive Our Lord on Sunday in good conscience? How does that make ANY sense???

None of it makes any sense, but the lab scientists are darn good at compartmentalizing their consciences.

It all needs to be stated in black and white, very clearly. Burke is trying.

39 posted on 07/03/2004 9:34:23 AM PDT by Desdemona
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To: Polycarp IV
OK, here's a judgment. And Kerry can thank God I am not his bishop. Kerry's activities meet the criteria for facilitating abortion. He is now automatically de facto excommunicated.
40 posted on 07/03/2004 9:34:44 AM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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