Bush campaign wants church lists

CNN ^ | Friday, July 2, 2004 Posted: 10:40 PM EDT (0240 GMT | N/A

[Nevermore]

I believe that entire quote was, "It's one thing for us Democrats to do that. It's a totally different thing for a partisan Republican campaign to come in and try to organize a church. A lot of black pastors are going to say: 'Wait a minute, bub! It's my job to politicize the Church!'"

You have no concept of a 'theocracy' if that's what you think this is. It really is nothing more than getting out the vote among your constituency. But you're right: this is a mistake. It's not the most diplomatic method. And it is, precisely, what the Demonrat party will do across Black America, albeit in a more covert fashion.

[mwilli20]

Which is why the founders incorporated it into our Constitution

The concept of which you speak, "separation of Church and state," has been interpreted into our Constitution by recent Supreme Court opinions.

What the founding fathers "incorporated" in the Constitution was a prohibition on Congress from either establishing a religion or preventing the free exercise of any religion.

Would you please tell me exactly how a political party asking private citizens for a list of their club members violates those prohibitions?

Please note that:
- Parties are neither the Congress nor the State,
- Asking is not forcing, and
- Private citizens are... well, private citizens.

On the topic of historical perspective, please also explain how the 2 most devastating tyrannies in history, nazism and communism exhibited no ties between state and religion.

If you believe that churches should not get involved with political parties that's fine, but please stop finding hidden meanings in the Establishment clause. They are not there!!!

[the right side jedi]

I agree. All the Bush campaign wants is to find voters that their message might appeal to and reach out them, get them involved in the political process, and inform them. It just so happens that these people are religious. They aren't trying to get priests and whole churches themselves behind the campaign, just individual voters who share his values because they happen to be religious and belong to a church. And don't democrats always say that more of us little people should be involved in the political process? Seriously, it bothers me so much that the media and democrats and even some conservatives get all touchy whenever religion is mentioned in the same paragraph (unless its about a Dem and his religion) as politics.

[Sola Veritas]

"Even the leadership of the Southern Baptists understands that this is just wrong."

True, it was a mistake for the Bush campaign to do this. I hope this doesn't turn off my fellow conservative evangelicals to not vote. Whoever advised this should be canned.

On the other hand, I don't give a rip what "Americans for the ...blah, blah, blah" thinks. They are hypocrites in that Black Churches have been hotbeds for partisan vote organization for years. They are blatant about it, and no one ever questions it because they are the RATS slaves. It is only "wrong" when republicans try this in churches leaning their way.

[jnarcus]

And since when do you believe the spin that CNN puts on anything? There is a huge difference between folks volunteering information and the government demanding it through some legal means. We are NO WHERE near a theocracy unless the religion is illiberalism....get a grip

[backtothestreets]

This is wrong and dangerous stuff. What assurances can be made the lists will not be used to create a master list that can be sold to businesses to raise funds, or used in some other manner?

Next they'll think of writing every state Republican leader, or local police chief for lists of gun owners (another conservative block), and imagine that getting into the wrong hands. What are these people thinking?

I would no more trust a political party with my information then I would a stranger. Oh wait! The political parties are the government. Well, no wonder they think an invasion of privacy is a sound way to conduct themselves.

I'd quit any church that felt they had a right to share my information with anyone.

Where the heck did the conservative wing of the Republican Party go? This party hss turned to the left, and it had best change direction.

[nathanbedford]

No, every Christian should be eager to be constructively organized into the political defense of his faith against secular, organized, state sanctioned attack.

The left has brought the entire might of the federal government to bear against the free exercise of our religious liberties including injunctive power, contempt power, tax power and criminal power. For example, when the left objects to campaigning in churches as illegal, it simply is not illegal or unconstitutional or even undemocratic but is can be contrary to the IRS code for the church to claim tax exemption. It has now become generally accepted that this provision has been enforced only against white churches, leaving the pro democrat black churches (presumably the ones which escaped arson when Clinton was a boy) sole possession of the field.

It is time for us to put entirely out of our minds the bizarre notion that it is somehow improper to engage in politics from the pulpit. The Montgomery Bus Boycott was certainly political activity and it was organized from the black churches, principally King's. The entire anti bellum anti-slavery movement could not have precipitated the War of Northern Aggression without the agitation in northern pulpits. These are favorite causes of the left and they are not seen as dangers to democracy at all.

It is only when democratic congregations of a few souls gathered in the name of their God dare to pose an obstacle to the secularization of America that the Left becomes exercised about the politicization of the pulpit.

[Susannah]

And as an aside,up until rather recently,there was written into law,that political office holders had to be Protestant.Sooooooooooooooo...have we always lived in a theocracy,then?

What written law are you referring to? The Constitution clearly states that there should be no "religious test" to hold office.

[Susannah]

Before the California Governor recall election, Clinton was shown live on local tv with Davis in a black church (at the pulpit with the preacher).

Davis also made the church/temple/mosque rounds for weeks prior to the election.

[nopardons]

It was a State thing and has been posted to FR several times in the past.

[kms61]

Note to self: Don't submit name and address to any church directories.

Look, I'm a Republican, but "I" choose whether, how, and with what organizations I involve myself. I don't appreciate being spammed, and this--to call a spade a spade--is spam.

Classic example of a good idea that's been horribly, horribly executed.

[Kerberos]

"Where the heck did the conservative wing of the Republican Party go?"

It has simply been turned into another socialist utopian party by the Christian fundamentalist. The only difference between Republicans and Democrats these days is that the Republicans now have a theocratic bent to the party. Which as history clearly proves has never been good for the average man.

But we should keep in mind that conservatives let this happen by keeping their mouths shut for fear of being ostracized in the community as being an atheist.

It is way past time that we get over that fear and took the party back.

[Kerberos]

"And since when do you believe the spin that CNN puts on anything?"

Never, primarily because I don't believe or disbelieve in anything, there is only what is and what is not. Everything else is "don't know,” words that you will rarely find on this site.

[Kerberos]

"This establishes a dreadful precedent. If the leaders of a political party can access church rosters for organizing purposes, what will prevent President Hillary or some other socialist in the future from using such rosters as a way to persecute Christians? "

Nothing, but the current administration is doing a much better job of getting the churches under control with the Faith Based Initiative program, a clearly unconstitutional program.

It would be interesting to see how many of the churches that give up the list are already in that program.

[Fresh Wind]

Damn! How'd that pidgeon get in here?

[k2blader]

Even the leadership of the Southern Baptists understands that this is just wrong.

Wow, Kerberos, we actually agree on this one.

[Recovering_Democrat]

Great. I've got a copy...he'll get mine.

[backtothestreets]

You're right. This is scary stuff. A well connected government group wants to have lists of citizens, and most posters seem to think it's a good idea! That's incredibly sad, or stupid.

Too many posters are trying real hard to equate liberals preaching from a pulpit to the list gathering idea, but there's no comparison. Get some conservatives to preach from the pulpit. Now, that would be a fair comparison.

No one should ever give the government, or anyone connected with government, more access into our lives then that which is necessary to perform the limited role of government, as outlined in our Constitution.

What are these lunatics thinking? I wasn't so certain before, but now I'm absolutely convinced the Republican Party is "the other liberal party".

[hershey]

And it would be wrong to have Kerry, Clinton, Gore, et. al give political speeches from the pulpit on Sunday morning, carrying a big, fat bible. Plus organizing voter registration lists and get out the vote drives from the church hall. Unless, that is, well, you know. Then we look the other way.

[backtothestreets]

Well, lookie here! I'm not the only one upset with this proposal. REAL conservative church groups are going on record with their displeasure over the proposal.

Baptists Angry at Bush Campaign Tactics:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=544&ncid=703&e=3&u=/ap/20040703/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_campaign_churches

This could cost Bush more votes then it gains. Hmmm.... may be part of the plan to get the remaining conservatives out of the party. Hmmmm......