THE LIGHTS ARE GOING OUT

NROTC ^ | 7/2/04 | John Derbyshire

[swilhelm73]

THE LIGHTS ARE GOING OUT [John Derbyshire] A Pentecostalist pastor in Sweden has been sentenced to one month in jail for criticizing homosexuality in a sermon. Story here.

Sweden today, the USA tomorrow. I see from the current HUMAN EVENTS that a "hate crime" amendment was slipped into the Defense Authorization Bill (S. 2400) to add homosexuals to the list of protected classes of citizens under U.S. civil rights law. This follows relentless lobbying from groups with innocuous, deliberately deceptive names like "Human Rights Campaign." Naturally the amendment passed the Senate by a landslide: "Eighteen Republicans and all Democrats present voted in favor."

Crimes are crimes--these “hate crimes” laws are aimed at censoring speech, protecting people from feeling offended--something quite subjective. We are losing our ancient liberties, ladies and gentleman, and the political classes, regardless of party, are perfectly OK with it. Posted at 12:25 PM

[RobbyS]

Gays have got it in their minds that people who think ill of them are trying to suppress their own feelings. More often it is annoyance at people who exaggerate their own miseries. Myself, the most egregious claim that gays make is to compare their station with blacks. Having grown up in the South and having seen how people treated each during that time , I must say that the comparison is odious.

[annyokie]

Amazing how you are so conversant with the mindpulse of the gay population, yet reviling of same in your opinions.

I know of no gay persons who compare their situation in society with that of Blacks. But, then, I actually know gay and Black and gay/black people.

I guess Jesus exempted all the gay-bashers here from His exhortation to "love the sinner, yet have the sin."

[RobbyS]

The only thing I am conversant with is the rhetoric of the gay-lesbian movement. Obviously you have forgotten abou the flap over gays in the military about ten years ago, when gays compared their plight with blacks while black leaders at that time disavowed the comparison. Now, of course, money has crossed palms and no such thing is heard any more. Gay-bashing, eh. By that you mean any criticism of the life-style. Hate the sin, all right. The sin is lying, by the way, although I guess that it must be expected in such a highly politicized movement as gay-rights.

[sionnsar]

Shine, Perishing Republic
Robinson Jeffers

While this America settles in the mould of its vulgarity,heavily thickening to empire,
And protest, only a bubble in the molten mass, pops and sighs out, and the mass hardens,
I sadly smiling remember that the flower fades to make fruit, the fruit rots to make earth.
Out of the mother; and through the spring exultances, ripeness and decadence; and home to the mother.

You making haste, haste on decay: not blameworthy; life is good, be it stubbornly long or suddenly
A mortal splendor: meteors are not needed less than mountains: shine, perishing republic.
But for my children, I would have them keep their distance from the thickening center; corruption
Never has been compulsory, when the cities lie at the monster's feet there are left the mountains.

And boys, be in nothing so moderate as in love of man, a clever servant, insufferable master.
There is the trap that catches noblest spirits, that caught -- they say -- God, when he walked on earth.

-- Robinson Jeffers

[kittymyrib]

I'll send FreeRepublic $50 if you can site the verse from the Bible where Jesus said, "Love the sinner but hate the sin." As a matter of fact, did you know that God hates sinners? Psalm 5:4-5 says, "You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell. The arrogant cannot stand in your presence. You hate all who do wrong." And Ps. 50:22: "Consider this, you who forget God, or I will tear you to pieces, with none to rescue you." And Ps. 53:5: "God scattered the bones of those who attacked you; you put them to shame, for God despised them." The only way that putrid sinners can stand before the wrath of the holy God is to be clothed in Jesus's righteousness. That is the plan to save sinful man that only God could conceive and execute. There are many false beliefs among those who think they are Christians today. Everyone should read their Bibles more and listen to the religious hucksters less.

[paul51]

while you are on a roll, touch on the 2nd amendment

[Rastus]

Here's a thread on the same story that has nothing to do with Derbyshire. Maybe lady lawyer is a homophobe, though. Any insight?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1164507/posts

[megatherium]

The paster said that homosexuality is a cancerous tumor on society. This sort of medical language mirrors the language used by the Nazis against the Jews in the 1930s and 1940s. It is exterminationist: you must cut a cancerous tumor out. I think this might be the grounds on which the pastor was convicted of hate speech.

If the pastor had said, "We believe homosexuality is wrong and that homosexuals can change or at least live holy, celibate lives", would he have been convicted of hate speech? I don't know about the Swedish law, but it is my impression that these sorts of laws do contain exemptions for statements of religious beliefs.

[Romulus]

You are overlooking the critical distinction between homosexuality (which is rightly condemned) and homosexual persons. I'm not aware that the pastor called for a persecution of any people.

[Salvation]

Catholic Discussion Ping!

Please notify me via FReepmail if you would like to be added to or taken off the Catholic Discussion Ping List.

Is persecution coming? Or is it already here?

[VOA]

bump

[swilhelm73]

Weak.

Argument ad NAZIeum generally indicates you have no real point to make.

The fundamental question is this;

Did the pastor directly ask those he was talking with to commit violence against any individual or group?

And the answer is no he did not.

As such, his speech should be protected as it would be in America. Sadly, Sweden is busy rejecting freedom in the name of political correctness.

And I would also point out, opening the door to the "well it sounds like something the NAZIs would say" exception to free speech would be an open invitation to the Left to ban all speech it disagrees with.

[VOA]

"I know of no gay persons who compare their situation in society with that of Blacks.
But, then, I actually know gay and Black and gay/black people."

Maybe the strategy of hitching the gay rights movement to the legacy of the African-American
civil rights movement hasn't been picked up yet by your friends.

But prominent black preachers (conservative to liberal) have expressed their
disdain of this comparison.
(And at the same time, I suspect that gay-bashing is NOT the ir approach to the gay community)

http://www.ukblackout.com/lifestyle/newafricanamericans.html

[Wallace T.]

In Canada (I think it was Saskatchewan), a pastor was fined recently by the local authorities for posting Biblical verses condemning homosexuality on a public billboard. Keep in mind this happened before the Canadian Parliament passed its most recent law defining condemnation of homosexuals as hate speech.

Meanwhile, in Sweden, Canada, and in most other nations in what used to be called Christendom, clergy and Christian believers are mocked by celebrities in the mass media, crucifixes are placed in jars of urine in art museums, and any symbol of the Christian faith are banned from the public domain. These are abominations that are the logical consequence of secular humanism becoming the dominant worldview in the Western democracies.

God is not mocked.

[185JHP]

Psalm 15:1 says: "Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill? !5:4 (He) in whose eyes a vile person is contemned (despised), but he honoureth them that fear the Lord. He that sweareth (testifys) to his own hurt, and changeth not." Milquetoastery not required or admired. Meekness is required to the Lord God, not to social criminals. Especially ones that delight in raping chilren, as some sodomites do.

[American in Israel]

What a horrible world when you have to pick and choose every word for fear that when you describe evil you may be jailed for hating it.

If a man cannot speak against a practice that reduces the life expectancy of people by 30 years, but can be jailed for smoking a cigarette because it might reduce the life expectancy of someone in the room somehow by somewhat, freedom is a concept long lost.

The law has become a protector of acts of evil, while at the same time a persecutor. All the while, the most offensive rule by the right to not be offended?!

The Homosexuals right to sodomy is protected as a "freedom" by removing the right to speak against it. Somehow the right of men to speak is more common to mankind than the drive to have intestinal sex.

This reduces freedom to the lowest common denominator, which to all is an odious price to pay, but the hopelessly addicted pervert is happy because his right to a fix is secured.

The ideas of the intercourse of philosophy is abandoned for the right of intercourse with the object of your fantasy. For those who live at the basest levels of gratification, it is a fair trade, but for those who the use of their minds is more satisfying than the use of their sexual organs it is the lowering of the sights of men from the Stars, to the gutter.

All enforced by law.

Homosexuals are not fighting for the right to be homosexual, but for the right of not being told is is a bad thing to do, we are not ruled now by freedom but by the fear of offense.
Well, I am offended at the spread of Aids, the high rate of child molestation by homosexuals, the flaunting of accepted sexual mores in public and by the high cost to society cleaning up after the mess that homosexuality causes in its wake. If you want to be a homosexual, that is your choice, but if you want to dictate to society how it must agree with you that is not your choice it is society's. Sorry, but the Homosexual Nazi is the rule, not the joke of the day. And to remove mans right to speak his mind so your conscience is not impinged upon will not silence it, nor change the fact that you will die from your actions, on average, 30 years before your fellows. You may outlaw dissension, but you can not outlaw cause and effect.

[thor76]

Whether or not the gay community likes it or not, homosexual conduct is expressly forbidden in scripture in numerous places in both the Old and New testaments. It is not a matter of public or private opinion - sorry kids! A church has the right to freely excesize their beliefs and preach them (certainly on their own property) all they want. No court or legislature has the right to tell them otherwise.
I am a Roman Catholic, and according to my faith it is wrong. Don't wanna believe it? Then you dont's have to go to church. Nobody is forcing you to attend any church.
The prohibition against homosexuality has existed in all decent society for most of recorded history. There are many reasons for it - to many to list here.
However, if gay folk wanna do their thing in private, they certainly may. But, remember that that God you rage against is watching everything you do in life, and he is not mocked. It is a violation of his law.
The gay community seems not to like criticism - any..at all. But they feel free to step on the rights of others, and the effrontery to equate their "struggle" (???) with that of Blacks. Sorry......black people may have experienced oppression in various times and places in this country, but at least they tried to be God fearing people! They were also slaves. There is simply no comparison.

[megatherium]

swilhelm73: Weak. Argument ad NAZIeum generally indicates you have no real point to make. The fundamental question is this; Did the pastor directly ask those he was talking with to commit violence against any individual or group? And the answer is no he did not.

I believe we agree that freedom of speech needs to be protected, since if only inoffensive speech is protected, then freedom of speech has no meaning -- if indeed the pastor's language was offensive. I was playing devil's advocate, trying to build a case that his language did cross some line into hate speech. I would never support such a law for the US and I find, along with everyone else on this board, stories such as this one (and the one in Saskatchewan) very ominous.

By the way, if you would like to know what I feel about homosexuality, please skate by my profile page.

[megatherium]

Romulus: You are overlooking the critical distinction between homosexuality (which is rightly condemned) and homosexual persons. I'm not aware that the pastor called for a persecution of any people.

My point was merely that I wasn't certain, from the story as given, that the pastor was not making an implied call for persecution. But I am inclined to agree with you that he was condemning homosexuality itself and not homosexual persons. Of course, the Swedish law, and the one up in Canada, are ominous for us in the US. If evil cannot be condemned, we are in grave danger.

[megatherium]

You of course are correct. My post #48 was merely asking the question if the pastor was in effect inciting violence, instead of simply condemning the evil of homosexuality. Evidently, he was not intending on inciting violence. Regardless, the Swedish law is frightening, and we should pray that our 200 year legal tradition of freedom of speech will prevent such laws from being enacted here.

I should mention that in my profile, I happen to say what I believe about homosexuality. I don't know if that would get me in trouble in Sweden or not!