Transport Aircraft Attacked-Baghdad Aiport-Unknown Number Of Wounded

http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story.jsp?sectionid=1274&storyid=1544058 ^

[KangarooJacqui]

I find her comment disgusting, and I appreciate the Australian and other Allies who have stood by America.

Cheers. Planes can be repaired (and apparently the plane was airworthy enough to take off again and fly to its base in an unnamed Persian Gulf country), human life - once taken - is gone for good.

SheLion's not exactly my favorite person right now, either. The comment was thoughtless, and her refusal to retract it is obviously winning her no friends on either side of the Pacific.

[eastforker]

My experience with .50 cal was military 30 something years ago. Max effective range is 2000 meters with a max range of over 7000 meters. That doesnt mean it can't be used effectivley to three thousand and I was using the .50 comparitively as I believe someone else stated more than likely 14 or 15 MM. I have no idea the ballistics of that weapon but 2 miles is within reason. No, I don't fire near as much as I used to , but I do know about walking tracer fire into targets, we still don't know how high this plane realy was for sure but small arms is still viable.

[Imal]

Speculations and unseemly bravado about shooting .50's aside, additional sources indicate that the plane, an RAAF C-130, was indeed hit by ground fire, although the characteristics of the weapon(s) used are unreported in the sources I've seen.

But until an authoritative source reveals more, I guess speculation is all we have on this one.

[Criminal Number 18F]

Most web sites say 1900 ft/min, others range from 1700 to 2100

That's in an international standard atmosphere: sea level, 59 degrees F. The altitude and temperature in Baghdad seriously degrade the performance of aircraft. The temperature has the effect of lowering the density of the air, and making the effective altitude (airmen call it density altitude) higher.

It reduces the lift of the wings (fewer air molecules to hold the machine up) and it reduces the power of the motors, although with turbine motors that's not very serious because they are designed for max efficiency at high altitudes to begin with. But hot weather is not the pilot's pal.

The plane was an RAAF Hercules. American made, but owned and operated by the Australians, who have been great allies.

That report makes it evident that the Ali Babas are in fact, an organised, stay behind element. That is actually good because where there are tendrils of organisation there are traces that intelligence operatives can follow. It will take time and patience, but these men are doomed.

Note that the hostage takers are asking for freedom for their buddies. That is why counter terrorism courses used to teach, under no circumstances take a terrorist alive. Unfortunately we have too many lawyers and not enough people with CT training making the calls in Baghdad. I doubt the nascent Iraqi government will be so prone to observe the niceties.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

[CHICAGOFARMER]

My experience with .50 cal was military 30 something years ago. Max effective range is 2000 meters with a max range of over 7000 meters.

xxxxxxxxxx

Now we are talking to someone with some common sense knowledge, until you said 2 miles was within reason. Sorry my ballistic calculator says my 9mm has more energy and velocity at the muzzle than the 50 cal at that distance.

Range Vel. Energy Total Bullet
yds fps ft/lbs Drop Path
0 2900 12417 0.0 -2.8
100 2771 11336 -2.1 0.0
200 2646 10337 -8.8 -1.8
300 2524 9405 -20.5 -8.6
400 2405 8539 -37.4 -20.6
500 2290 7742 -60.7 -39.0
600 2178 7003 -90.6 -64.0
700 2069 6320 -127.7 -96.2
800 1963 5689 -172.2 -135.8
900 1860 5107 -226.3 -185.0
1000 1761 4578 -291.6 -245.5
1100 1667 4102 -368.1 -317.0
1200 1577 3671 -456.2 -400.2
1300 1490 3277 -556.8 -496.0
1400 1409 2931 -677.2 -611.5
1500 1335 2631 -814.7 -744.0
1600 1266 2366 -972.1 -896.6
1700 1202 2133 -1146.8 -1066.4
1800 1150 1952 -1357.9 -1272.6
1900 1102 1793 -1584.3 -1494.1
2000 1064 1671 -1848.6 -1753.5
2100 1030 1566 -2138.9 -2038.9
2200 1000 1476 -2463.7 -2358.8
2300 973 1397 -2818.7 -2708.9
2400 949 1329 -3212.1 -3097.4
2500 927 1268 -3634.6 -3515.1
2600 906 1211 -4103.6 -3979.1
2700 887 1161 -4588.8 -4459.4
2800 869 1114 -5123.8 -4989.5
2900 851 1069 -5726.3 -5587.2
3000 835 1029 -6328.5 -6184.5
3100 819 990 -6998.5 -6849.6
3200 803 952 -7741.7 -7587.9
3300 789 919 -8456.4 -8297.7
3400 774 884 -9309.4 -9145.8
3500 761 855 -10117.4 -9948.9
3600 747 823 -11068.1 -10894.7
3700 734 795 -12030.4 -11852.1
3800 721 767 -13074.0 -12890.8
3900 709 742 -14113.6 -13925.6
4000 696 715 -15327.2 -15134.2

at 4000 yards
bullet drop 15134 inches or 1277 feet
velocity fps 696 --- my 9mm is over 900 fps at muzzle
energy ft per second ---- 715 lbs

all of the above are fatal if passing thru the head however a single bullet on a muli engine plane bringing it down is like slim and none and slim just left town.

[Criminal Number 18F]

I'd say cut the thoughtless poster a little slack. It's a natural reaction. Recently I heard that a guy from SF was killed and I checked into it. I said to a friend, "I hope it's not somebody I know." It wasn't, although we had mutual friends, and as I read about his young family I realized that what I had said was completely thoughtless and heartless.

I was initially glad it was a guy I didn't know. Just like you might initially be glad that a victim of an attack was a foreigner, not a countryman -- except, of course, if the victim is someone you didn't know, you'll never get the chance now, and it the victim will not be buried under our flag with a weeping wife and kids he'll be buried under the flag of another proud nation with a weeping wife and kids...

... what I'm saying is, we all need to think about that initial reaction. It's natural to wish the person on the news who has been hurt is a stranger, but it's a bit churlish. When you think about it.

I gotta wonder how the Australians feel. Britain said war so they went to Spion Kop and Passchendaele and Gallipoli and Cassino and Tobruk. America said war so they went to Vietnam and Iraq and Afghanistan and Iraq. Yeah, they benefit from a stable, free world, but they could just sit there on their remote continent and let us sort it out, and they never have. (Not to mention they keep an eye on PNG and Indonesia, etc). We don't do enough to thank the nations that have shouldered the burden with us: Italy, Japan, Korea, Australia. Even little El Salvador and ... no kidding... Tonga sent troops.

AH... I ramble and digress and stuff. Sorry. It's late.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

[KangarooJacqui]

It's okay. I ramble a bit too ;-)

I think what we were annoyed about is that since the PLANE wasn't American, the reaction from SheLion was "whew".

As it was, the plane was fine. Okay, it'll obviously need one or two holes patched up, but no Australians lost their lives and better yet, we didn't lose a plane either!

The guy who died was an American civilian (and I feel very deeply sorry for his family), and I think this is where the initial confusion came into the story. Obviously nobody who was in such a tearing hurry to break this story (I'm looking at YOU, news media!) was anywhere NEAR Baghdad Airport... Australian C-130's are clearly distinguishable from their USAF counterparts by the big words "Royal Australian Air Force" painted down the side, as opposed to "USAF"... duh!

Lazy reporting makes me very angry indeed, especially as I trained as a journalist but never "made it" due to illness whilst I saw far less talented people rise to the top (one particularly braindead reporter who I briefly worked alongside at a TV station in Melbourne ten years back, is now on CNN International. So it seems sloppy reporting DOES get you places...)

[SheLion]

And if you did mean it how it read, SheLion, Allied minds are extremely annoyed... it was an Australian plane, on which one of your own was unfortunate enough to lose his life.

I did NOT mean it the way I typed it. Anyone who knows me knows that I pray for the whole coalition every day of my life.

I apologize for how my fingers typed out what has been misunderstood. Ease up.

[SheLion]

Prayer Wheel For Our Military - With Photos

[KangarooJacqui]

Apology received and acknowledged... and thankyou'ed (I really thought nothing less of you, SheLion, but it was an emotional time) - roger and out.

It's 10.54pm my time and I really out to try to get some sleep. The more nights I go without, the worse I get... or so some expert on bipolar disorder says, anyway.

BTW... the bipolar is the one and only reason I wasn't at my local military recruiting station months ago. I know they wouldn't take me now, so this nutter's resigned to ground duty as an informal information portal.

Oh yeah, and I've given up smoking again... so I guess you hate me for that, too?

[SheLion]

Oh yeah, and I've given up smoking again... so I guess you hate me for that, too?

Oh for heaven's sake. Will you get a grip? hehe! I commend you I don't hate you!

Sometimes the fingers over take the mind! :)

[KangarooJacqui]

Grip gotten... command recieved and acknowledged...

Cheers, M'lady.... see you tomorrow (my time - 11.15pm Monday here)

FReegards,

KJ

[SheLion]

Cheers, M'lady.... see you tomorrow (my time - 11.15pm Monday here)

Have a good night there! (I hate the time difference!)

[KangarooJacqui]

(I hate the time difference!)

'Tis but the tribulations of a world not flat, and timezones being but a neccessary evil...

(Rightio, I've obviously drunk a little too much... explains why I'm being medieavally philosophical instead of straight-out hostile, as I can be when under the influence)

[PAR35]

what I'm saying is, we all need to think about that initial reaction.

Which is why I gave her plenty of time to explain or clarify before I flamed. I did cut her plenty of slack, and she has still expressed no remorse for her comments.

We all make comments we regret; those with character (like you) respond appropriately upon reflection.