Pope Denounces Events in Iraq to Bush

The Las Vegas Sun ^ | June 04, 2004 at 15:11:46 PDT | TOM RAUM

[Ernest_at_the_Beach]

ROME (AP) -

President Bush got a sharp dose of Europe's opposition to his Iraq policy Friday, quietly in the halls of the Vatican from Pope John Paul II and loudly in the streets of Rome from thousands of demonstrators.

The ailing pontiff complained about recent "deplorable events," an apparent reference to the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. troops. In the absence of a commitment to shared human values, "neither war nor terrorism will ever be overcome," he said, struggling to speak.

However, the pope welcomed the recent establishment of an interim government and called for a speedy transfer of sovereignty to the Iraqis.

Not far from the Vatican walls, tens of thousands of protesters took to the streets to demonstrate through central Rome, many with signs demanding Italy withdraw its troops from Iraq. A score of demonstrators hurling stones clashed with police during the march. Others threw firecrackers and set a trash can on fire.

Bush had dinner with a top ally on Iraq, Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi. On Saturday, the president heads to Paris to meet with one of his sharpest war critics, French President Jacques Chirac.

Despite Berlusconi's backing, and his decision to send 3,000 Italian troops to Iraq, polls show that a majority of Italians oppose the U.S.-led war and occupation of Iraq, a sentiment common throughout western Europe.

Bush is on a three-day trip to Italy and France to help commemorate the June 1944 liberation of Rome and the allied D-Day invasion of Normandy. He was also using the trip - and an international economic summit next week in Sea Island, Ga. - to try to build more support among leading nations for a new U.N. resolution to deal with post-occupation Iraq.

But the announcement in Baghdad that five U.S. soldiers were killed and five wounded on Friday when their vehicles were attacked in east Baghdad served as a reminder that Iraq remained an extremely dangerous place.

Seated next to the pope, Bush promised his nation would work for "human liberty and human dignity," without making any reference to Iraq. He presented the pontiff with the presidential medal of freedom, America's highest civilian award, calling him "a devoted servant of God."

The president and his wife Laura laid a green wreath at the Ardeatine Cave Memorial, where Nazi occupiers massacred 335 Italian citizens in 1944. Bush, alone, approached the wreath, straightened its blue ribbon and bowed his head as a bugler played.

At the Vatican, Bush sat impassively as the 84-year-old pope, seated in front of a microphone, read his statement in English in a voice that was audible, but not easily understood. His hands trembled from Parkinson's disease.

"Mr. President, your visit to Rome takes place at a moment of great concern for the continuing situation of grave unrest in the Middle East, both in Iraq and in the Holy Land," the pope said.

"In the past few weeks, other deplorable events have come to light which have troubled the civic and religious conscience of all."

Although the remarks appeared directed at abuses of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. troops at Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison, they could also be taken to include other atrocities such as the kidnapping of foreign civilians in Iraq by Islamic militants and the beheading of an American contractor.

The pope did not elaborate. Neither would papal spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls, although he did not dispute characterizations that the comments referred primarily to abuse at Abu Ghraib prison.

The spokesman said that while the pope had reiterated the Vatican's long-standing opposition to the war, he made plain he was ready to move forward.

Later, Navarro-Valls issued a brief statement summing up Bush's visit to the Vatican. "There were some points of agreement, especially regarding the process of normalization of Iraq," he said.

Navarro-Valls also spoke about the U.S. humanitarian role around the world, particularly in Africa, and, as the pope himself had stated, the promotion of moral values in American society.

White House spokesman Scott McClellan said, "We appreciate the Holy Father's words of support for the interim government and for the transfer of sovereignty."

Regarding the pope's apparent reference to Abu Ghraib, McClellan said, "I'm sure the Holy Father is concerned about the abuses. The president is as well. That's why we are acting, taking a systemic look at the prison system and holding those responsible who committed those atrocities."

Friday's was Bush's third meeting with the pope since he became president.

Bush has aggressively courted Roman Catholic voters - a bloc making up about a quarter of the electorate that split evenly between Bush and Democrat Al Gore in 2000.

Thanking Bush for the medal of freedom award, the pontiff said: "God bless America."

--

[marajade]

"Signing CFR has proven that Bush is as dumb as the liberals say he is."

Because of that bill he was able to raise 200 mil for the primaries, twice as much, because the limit was raised from 1 to 2 thousand hard money per person.

[sarasmom]

One "wins" by letting the perverse and incompetent media hang themselves.

I have some minor memory problems, due to a bout of meningitis, but I am not so far gone that I fail to grasp how seldom the major networks broadcast the words of this President, as opposed to the last one.

Even granting that I admittedly hold an anti-media bias, for strictly professional reasons, none can claim this POTUS, in time of war,is not suffering from a concerted effort by a socialist elitist media to mute his leadership and that the "media" does not actively attempt to undermine his positions.

The formerly powerful "mainstream media" is gasping it's last dying breath, while we communicate on this forum. I often have to laugh at myself and other fellow news junkies who decry the general publics tendency to virtually ignore current events.

Looking at it from another aspect, does not the general publics cynical attitude regarding "news" reflect their clear understanding of the lack of available, trustworthy,factual reporting?

[marajade]

The media is already discredited... They're right up there with lawyers and such...

[oceanview]

I agree, just like with Abu Graib - after 20+ days of constant "torture" spin - a backlash was ready to be had.

But while your point is true, the missing link here is that it takes acknowledgement of that fact from the president himself at the bully pulpit to translate some of that 70% you quote - into votes. Unless he himself makes the point, it doesn't gel. Bush almost went too far appeasing the media on the prison scandal - he stopped just short of dumping Rumsfeld (which would have been a disaster for him). Have you ever seen Bush mention the Berg beheading, even once? Just a simple statement like the one made by Zell Miller would be fine. This white house just expects these politcal victories to magically appear - they don't reach out and try to make it happen.

Bush is weak politically. Imagine for a moment if this Wilson grand jury case burst open and there was a criminal charge directly against Bush (this is all hypothetical of course, before anyone starts flaming me as a DUer). Do you think Bush is politically strong enough in the House and Senate to survive an impeachment scandal? Or would they march up to the WH like they did with Nixon and ask him to leave? Think about it, I think I know the answer, and I don't like it.

[kcvl]

If someone slams the church I simply call them on it. Point out their bigotry and move on. You can't make a liberal think. You can't make a Catholic hater like the church. I simply decided not to take it any more. Whenever I see an anti-Catholic post I will call them on it. I have always stood up to bullies and this is just another opportunity.

33 posted on 06/04/2004 1:34:41 PM PDT by IrishCatholic

Does this only apply to my comments or all comments?

[oceanview]

don't discount the media influence - amongst the people they reach, they are still influencing alot of minds.

[CasearianDaoist]

But Rudy's response did not work politically. That was one of my point to you: You may be confusing the personal with the political. Rudy's response may make you feel better but it had no political gain to it. If it had you would not need to talk about it. That response was buries. It had no effect. Ironically, the big mistake the 911 commission did was to to after New York city civil servant unions. It may be by giving competent answers to the these hacks, like Rice did, and hanging them on their own petards, as ashcroft did, is more effective. But it is all so ephemeral, you talk about Rudy's response yet that was two or three manufactured "scandals" ago. What was not net effect of it? How do you win? You keep side stepping the issue here. It is not one tactic vs another, it is the issue of a corrupt relationship between mefria and the Liberal establishment. Just playing to their game will not win, or so it seems to me. They have tried coordinated responses, look how the Clarke business. yet the results of this are ambiguous.

Again, I think that you are missing the point. Fo you really think that having the entire GOP estavlishment stand up every hour of every day and denounce the media will work? Do you not think that the media has a response to this, that they would in fact love it. What would we do then, just keep screaming out our frustration and have them make us into a lauging stock?

What if Bush actually wins? What will be the effect on the media then? WIll the lose the respect of the nation as an institution? Maybe Bush is playing for the big marbles.

[ijcr]

Ultimately the Vatican won & communism lost.

I did not know Check point Charlie was manned by Jesuits,or that the German East-West border was patrolled by Carmelite nuns armed to the teeth with 12" straight edges.

Perhaps it was the capable hands of Benedictines that manouvered the yokes of high flying B-52's and the nuclear submarines that lay under the ice caps were crewed by Cistercians . I am now aware how the Vatican made the Soviets cry Uncle.

Happen stance it was the Knights of Columbus that ran satellite intellegence and that the Pope's weekly mass was a way to transmit secret instructions to the Franciscans.

The whiff of a rotting corpse permeates the entire fabric of the Roman Catholic Church and false self agrandisement is not the solution.

[PatriotBill]

And there are actually some Catholics who believe that the Pope is a "sinless man." Give me a freakin' break!!!

[CyberAnt]

Not only that .. I don't believe the Pope has anything to say .. what with the deplorable scandal of molesting priests. A scandal which the pope has all but ignored and excused.

I'm sorry, but he's not GOD! He's entitled to his opinion, but this public rebuke of my President is very offensive to me considering his own scandals.

[lainde]

I truly don't think the pope is aware anymore. The anti-Parkinsons drugs are making his head fuzzy. Also the colon cancer may have metastasized and he may be on heavy duty pain meds. I think his lefty prelates (who tolerated and covered up the pedophelia) just feed him propaganda. Why else would he have kissed the bloody Koran?! Catholics just don't do things like that. I remember being in Catholic grade school and we were told not to kiss statues...They were just "representative" objects to remind us of the dead saints. I'm sure he was confused. That's the only way I can tolerate all this.

[oceanview]

it has to be a sustained effort. I've seen Rudy do the same thing with Wolf Blitzer et al - the impression left with the viewer is that this guy doesn't take any sh*t, and that the media are pinheads. And yes, it can work. Its better then having Lindsey Graham appearing with Hillary, he talks like she has him on a leash - that tactic sure doesn't work.

Some progress has been made in discrediting the mainstream media over the past years - I give all the credit to talk radio, and most of it to Rush. But their influence is so far reaching - a person may well have turned off CBS/NBC/ABC/CNN, but as I said earlier, when they get into their car and listen to a music station - the news at the top of the hour pumps the same crap to them, because the media matrix sources all of its stories from the same place - the New York Times.

[A.A. Cunningham]

But what can we expect from a church that stood by while Hitler killed 6 million Jews?

You mean the Church that saved 850,000+ Jews from being slaughtered while Roosevelt wasn't bombing the rail lines leading to concentration camps and denying port entry to a ship, the S.S. St.Louis, full of Jewish refugees fleeing the Nazis.

[A.A. Cunningham]

And there are actually some Catholics who believe that the Pope is a "sinless man." Give me a freakin' break!!!

I'd like to see your source for that anecdotal remark. The Pope actually avails himself of the Sacrament of Penance, Confession, once a week.

[B Knotts]

Fire Karl Rove

Agreed.

hire Ed Rollins back

Dunno about that one...seems to me he had a problem in New Jersey a while back.

I'm looking forward to the return of Karen Hughes, though.

[B Knotts]

He has no source, of course...just another batch of mindless Catholic bashing. It's an American tradition.

[CasearianDaoist]

But what makes you think that this "sustained effort" will ever be carried on that same radio program that you listen to when you commute?

Take the Presidents meeting with the Pope. Here as much if not more time was taken up in the Popes statement acknowledging Bush's stance on abortion and by inference gay marriage. Will that ever find its way into the media? If the entire cabinet were to do nothing else for the summer but hit this point home it would either get buried or it would be spun to the same negative effect. It would be "separation of Church and State!" "Those hicks are off washing themselves in the blood of the lamb again!" And no doubt commentary would soon follow that they are manipulating the poor old doddering Pope.

You cannot win an argument with a sophist, you can only expose his sophistry to others.

The Graham's of the world seem to do this no matter what the GOP leadership says. The fact is that the GOP "majority" is quite tenuous, witness McCain's "Kyoto treaty" bill that he is sponsoring with Lieberman.

There is not that level of party control, and, to be frank, many in the GOP do not seem to understand just what the Liberal agenda is really about. They have had the Hill for most of a decade and they still cat like a cowed majority. Why did they not rally around Gingrich when he needed their support? How is Bush supposed to enforce this sort of discipline?

As for Rush, well he could end up in jail. I am not a big Rush listener but it seems fairly obvious that there is no national outcry here when the Dem attack machine is just as obviously viciously going after any dissent.

That is just my point: These people are just not decent people, the only difference between them and the Nazis is they current lack the power to implement a totalitarian state.

Again my point is that it is a cultural crisis and at the root of that is the question of whether or not Americans can come to understand how corrupt the media is and how it has corrupted our collective perceptions of the world and our very psyche. You will not win by arguing with it on its own terms, or so it seems. Reagan did not even try.

The NYT is not the only primary source but one cannot get around their corruption. Look at the NY Sun which was set up to debunk it. The Times gets caught up in lies weekly and yet it still get away with it. There is no outrage.

How do we reform this short of pulling down the 1st Amendment? With our pocket books, I guess. By ignoring them I guess. Rational suasion with the media seems to be impossible. It is not really a forum for discourse but rather a platform for agitprop. The American people must come to see this or we are lost.

[stop_fascism]

What are you talking about. The pope said, "God bless America" then thanked us for liberating Italy and for our humanitarian aid to Africa.

Whatever he said to the president in private should be just that, private.

[TOUGH STOUGH]

Good point.....We know why.