F/A-22 Ups and Downs; the Tacair Debate; [Brian's Military Ping List]

Air Force Association ^ | May 2004

[VaBthang4]

"When Rutan is lugging defense satellites into orbit, you ping me, okay?"

LOL

[Southack]

"You just cant keep making statements like that without losing credibility."

Why are you taking shots at me? You know that I'm going to hit back.

You were so unknowlegeable that you weren't aware that the F-117 and B-2A could drop JDAMS from FL400.

In contrast, I did.

You think that $1.2 Billion fighters that can't go Mach 6 and that can't go sub-orbital into Space are our future.

In contrast, I don't.

You are a dinosaur. You're practically back there with old naval captains touting battleships and ridiculing aircraft carriers.

Name one, just one, technical revolution that you saw coming before the mainstream of society had accepted it.

Come on, what concept have you ever spotted on your own before you were *told* what to think?

Just name one.

[Southack]

"You forgot "NON-LETHAL" [the crux of the matter]"

Would you label Boeing 747's "non-lethal" on 9/11/2001?

[Magnum44]

In case no one has been paying attention, the F-35 is D-E-A-D DEAD

What are you saying we should be paying attention to? JSF has far more customers than F-22. The AF was lucky F-22 wasn't killed because it did not meet joint needs.

[VaBthang4]

You're wrong for taking it personally. You been shown some very significant hurdles. Nobody has dismissed the concept as much as they've tried to point out the trap doors.

Dinasaur or not, his points have been more valid than your's where a high speed, sub-obital platform are concerned.

[VaBthang4]

"Would you label Boeing 747's "non-lethal""

When taking on an F-22, Tank, Artillery, Single Soldiers keeping fire watch out in the desert....yes.

Regardles, the two are unrelated and you havent tackled the serious issues presented to you.

[Pukin Dog]

You were so unknowlegeable that you weren't aware that the F-117 and B-2A could drop JDAMS from FL400.

Unknowledgable? No. Drunk on Guinness? Absolutely. Or did you miss my apology?

You are digging a hole, kid. Nobody is taking shots at you. My comments were about a mission profile including a drop from 40K, which was not answered. If my comments anger you, that is your problem. I have asked you direct questions while trying to answer yours, both drunk and sober. If you don't understand 'dialog', may I suggest it is a lot less complicated than space vehicles? Now calm down. Nobody hit you, but if you cant take a direct challenge, why are you here?

P.S. When you accuse someone of being unknowledgable, you might try spelling it correctly?

[Pukin Dog]

The AF was lucky F-22 wasn't killed because it did not meet joint needs.

So was the nation. JSF has customers, yes. Those customers will be purchasing something else.

[Pukin Dog]

Name one, just one, technical revolution that you saw coming before the mainstream of society had accepted it.

Spell-checkers.

I know, but he left it hanging over the plate and I couldn't lay off it

[Southack]

"Nobody has dismissed the concept as much as they've tried to point out the trap doors. Dinasaur or not, his points have been more valid than your's where a high speed, sub-obital platform are concerned."

No, the "trap doors" are just the typical denials that are to be expected from the "we've always done it this way and ain't gonna change" crowd.

There aren't any remaining technical hurdles. From Space, it is imminently possible to drop a GPS-guided bomb, fire a missile, take a picture, or whatever else that you want.

Getting into Space cheaply has been an issue; no longer. Rutan's whole craft can be built (or copied/modified) for a measely $10 million. Civlians routinely spend that much or more on homes, yachts, and GulfStream V's.

Going hypersonic cheaply has likewise been an issue; again, no longer.

If you want to go where the F-22 can't, if you want to fly faster than the F-22, then a foreign military need merely copy, and perhaps modify (if desired), Rutan's existing civilian technology.

You can build and buy a thousand or more of Rutan's craft for what we currently have spent on each F-22.

It doesn't take a genius to put those components (e.g. cheap, Mach 6, Sub-Orbital) together to figure out that the F-22 is lagging behind existing civilian technology.

Yeah yeah, you can poke holes at it all day long. That's what the battleship guys did to the new aircraft carrier fanatics back in the 1920's....but that didn't make them right.

Naysayers are a dime a dozen. They are to be expected.

Visionaries are a different beast altogether, however.

[Southack]

Spell-checkers?!

Doh! No fair using your weapon of mass humor against me...

[Poohbah]

Getting out? I don't know, but I doubt it. It is too slow and I doubt they could get out to gas without alerting the enemy to their bearing. Any tankers nearby would come under attack, which we could defend fine, but again give egress bearing hints to everything in the area.

A "nearby" tanker for a B-2 over the DPRK would be somewhere around Guam.

[Pukin Dog]

Right, but how hard to point to Guam, and get a few dozen aircraft out that way at Mach 1.5 while the B-2 moseys along? The B-2 would likely make it out, but a lucky shot puts a billion dollars in the drink. I would send something that can shoot back.

[Pukin Dog]

There aren't any remaining technical hurdles.

I represent the Society of Dinosaur Naysayers of America. An official request is put to you for a single fact supporting this quote. No name calling now, just asking you to back this up. If you don't answer, it will be illustrative. I await your response.

Please, if you will, give special attention to weapons targeting, threat tracking, coordinated ops and communications?

[VaBthang4]

"No, the "trap doors" are just the typical denials that are to be expected from the "we've always done it this way and ain't gonna change" crowd."

This sentence is beneath you...leave the HaterAde alone.

"There aren't any remaining technical hurdles. From Space, it is imminently possible to drop a GPS-guided bomb, fire a missile, take a picture, or whatever else that you want. Getting into Space cheaply has been an issue; no longer. Rutan's whole craft can be built (or copied/modified) for a measely $10 million."

All understood, however the concept you propose means actually carrying GPS guided bombs, Missiles or serveillance equipment with you....that being the case, the cost goes up exponentially. You have to install the computers that actually program the GPS munitions while aloft or do you intend on coding the strikes before you even take off? If so, what tactical good is it? Cant a cruise missile do the same for a much lower cost?

Hellfires require targeting hardware and software...how ya gonna put them on board and keep the platform cheap? If you do put those systems onboard, there goes your weight. If your weight goes then there is another reason you aint gonna be doing it cheap cause now you have to have engine[s] to get and keep the platform up there. Once again, there goes the price.

Sparrows, Amraams, etc etc all require targeting/aquisition computers....there goes your weight, there goes your cost.

C'mon Bro this stuff is overwhelmingly simple. You see it, you must or else some should ridicule you...

...humble yourself.

[Pukin Dog]

From Space, it is imminently possible to drop a GPS-guided bomb

Oops, I missed this one. Forget the other questions, and just tell me how it is possible to 'drop' ANYTHING from space, and I will go away happy. I wont even ask you how you plan to get this magic weapon INTO space, I promise.

[Southack]

"All understood, however the concept you propose means actually carrying GPS guided bombs, Missiles or serveillance equipment with you....that being the case, the cost goes up exponentially. You have to install the computers that actually program the GPS munitions while aloft..."

A handheld PDA weighing 6 ounces can program GPS coordinates. A GPS bomb can already be dropped from sub-orbital Space.

Programming GPS coords and dropping a bomb weren't the technical hurdles. The hurdles, which Rutan has overcome, were going fast and high for cheap.

[Southack]

"Oops, I missed this one. Forget the other questions, and just tell me how it is possible to 'drop' ANYTHING from space, and I will go away happy."

From sub-orbitable Space, *everything* will drop. That's physics.

[VaBthang4]

"but how hard to point to Guam, and get a few dozen aircraft out that way at Mach 1.5 while the B-2 moseys along? The B-2 would likely make it out, but a lucky shot puts a billion dollars in the drink."

Such a reach Bro. The reality is that it can be done with an acceptable risk to aircraft and crew.

"I would send something that can shoot back."

I wouldn't. I'd send something to loiter over South Korea, Japan that can put down anything scrambled up [after the deed was already done].

[Poohbah]

Right, but how hard to point to Guam, and get a few dozen aircraft out that way at Mach 1.5 while the B-2 moseys along?

Who said the B-2 has to fly in a straight line?