Posted on 05/28/2004 12:27:11 AM PDT by JohnHuang2
AMEN!
ping
Uh-oh. The Kool-Aid drinking NRSTers are going to be all over this in no time. The over/under for this tread is 200 by the end of the day.
ping
Replacing the payroll tax with some other broad-based tax that is unconnected to a specific worker's wages breaks the link between contributions and benefits.
Wasn't aware that a tax is a "contribution" to anything other than the coffers of government as a politician's slush fund to redistribute in accord with political expediancy.
What Social Security Trust Fund
"The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in Fleming v. Nestor (1960), 363 US 603; that there is no Constitutional right to Social Security benefits. Social Security benefits can legally be cut or eliminated at any time, and beneficiaries have no recourse. The Court held that, "To engraft upon the Social Security System a concept of 'accrued property rights' would deprive it of the flexibility and boldness in adjustments to ever changing conditions which it demands."
If we are going to replace some tax with a progressive consumption tax, it should be the income tax, not the payroll tax.
Hmmmm! Last I looked, the Social Security/Medicare payroll tax on wages is an income tax.
Title 26 US Code Subtitle C Sec. 3101. Rate of tax
- (a) Old-age, survivors, and disability insurance
In addition to other taxes, there is hereby imposed on the income of every individual a tax equal to the following percentages of the wages (as defined in section (a)) received by him with respect to employment (as defined in section (b)) - ***
- (b) Hospital insurance
In addition to the tax imposed by the preceding subsection, there is hereby imposed on the income of every individual a tax equal to the following percentages of the wages (as defined in section (a)) received by him with respect to employment (as defined in section (b)) - ***
And goes into general revenues just like any other income tax:
Title 26 US Code Subtitle C Sec. 3501. Collection and payment of taxes
- (a) General rule
The taxes imposed by this subtitle shall be collected by the Secretary and shall be paid into the Treasury of the United States as internal-revenue collections.
To be redistributed at political whim.
If done [convert to a consumption tax] properly, this would increase incentives for work, saving and investment that would boost real economic growth.
Certainly would so why do a half job on it?
I guess some folks just seem to want to keep the 16th amendment and income taxes around and live forever under the income/payroll tax system.
A pile of excretement called by any other name still smells and sticks to the bottom of shoes.
| "a free people that pays slave taxes to its government is willingly training itself for bondage." |
A Taxreform bump for you all.
If you would like to be added to this ping list let me know.
"A pile of excretement called by any other name still smells and sticks to the bottom of shoes"
A very good description of the NRST.
Uh-oh. The Kool-Aid drinking NRSTers are going to be all over this in no time.
Getting the adhominens in early, I see. Guess I had better ping in a few Kool-Aid drinkers to handle the rush. I'd hate to disappoint you YN.
The over/under for this tread is 200 by the end of the day.
Well I certainly hope so, the more that learn of the National Retail Sales Tax and its advantages over the income/payroll tax system the sooner it will be enacted.
- Dramatically reduce the costs of goods and services by 20 to 25 percent.
- Allow you to keep 100 percent of your paycheck, pension, and Social Security payments.
- Gross Domestic Product will increase by almost 10.5 percent in the first year after enactment.
- Compliance costs would decrease by 90 percent.
- Real investment would initially increase by 76 percent relative to the investment that would be made under present law. While this increase would gradually decline, it remains 15 percent higher than under the existing tax structure.
- Exports would increase by 26 percent initially and would remain more than 13 percent above the level under the current tax system.
- Real wages will increase.
- The working poor would experience an increase in real lifetime consumption of between 8 and 14 percent.
- Increases incentives to work by as much as 20 percent in many households, leading to higher economic growth and efficiency.
- Interest rates will fall 25 to 35 percent.
John Linder in the House & Saxby Chambliss Senate, offer a comprehensive bill to kill all income and payroll taxes outright, and provide a IRS free replacement in the form of a pure consumption tax:
H.R.25, S.1493
A bill to promote freedom, fairness, and economic opportunity by repealing the income tax and other taxes, abolishing the Internal Revenue Service, and enacting a national retail sales tax to be administered primarily by the States.
Ot any tax, for that matter. But the redeeming thing about a NRST is that it's frontloaded, right there at the point of sale so everyone can see it. That's what the control freaks don't like about it. Including the ones on FR who drink the kool aid of the GOPs big government agenda.
A sales tax where the citizen controls their level of taxation, and the tax rate is transparent, is anathema to power hungry politicians.
This sounds more like NYTimes then Town Hall. Total strawman.
"A sales tax where the citizen controls their level of taxation, and the tax rate is transparent..."
Not all consumption is controllable by the taxpayer, so the amount of tax is not truly controlled by the citizen. Essential consumption is not controllable, while most discretionary spending is controllable (it can even be done over the internet and in foreign countries where that consumption would escape the NRST).
But I'll say this at least, Bartlett created a nice little strawman (re: NRST) for himself so he could knock it down. He makes some valid points on the gas tax, but his focus is still narrowed down to an over-simplification, assuming that controlling energy costs is the purpose of the proposal -- I strongly believe that it's just one more way for Congresscritters to tax and spend, which is how they maintain their power bases.
Which is why the NRST includes the Family Consumption Allowance (FCA), which essentially un-taxes subsistence-level (essential) spending.
"A pile of excretement called by any other name still smells and sticks to the bottom of shoes"
A very good description of the NRST.
There are obviously those who hold such personal opinions.
OTOH, there are those who come to a much different conclusion rooted in economics and the Constitutional basics:
"Imposts, excises, and, in general, all duties upon articles of consumption, may be compared to a fluid, which will, in time, find its level with the means of paying them. The amount to be contributed by each citizen will in a degree be at his own option, and can be regulated by an attention to his resources. The rich may be extravagant, the poor can be frugal; and private oppression may always be avoided by a judicious selection of objects proper for such impositions. "
"It is a signal advantage of taxes on articles of consumption
that they contain in their own nature a security against excess.They prescribe their own limit, which cannot be exceeded without
defeating the end proposed - that is, an extension of the revenue."When applied to this object, the saying is as just as it is witty
that, "in political arithmetic, two and two do not always make four."If duties are too high, they lessen the consumption; the collection
is eluded; and the product to the treasury is not so great as when
they are confined within proper and moderate bounds.This forms a complete barrier against any material oppression of the
citizens by taxes of this class, and is itself a natural limitation of
the power of imposing them.Impositions of this kind usually fall under the denomination of indirect
taxes, and must for a long time constitute the chief part of the revenue
raised in this country." (Emphasis added).
|
Ludwig von Mises as Policy Analyst: Monetary Reform, Fiscal Policy, and Foreign Exchange Controls by Richard M. Ebeling http://www.heritage.org/Research/PoliticalPhilosophy/hl754.cfm#pgfId-1023417
|
Alan Keyes: Taxes & Government Spending:
- "The income tax in effect makes us vassals to the government – the politicians decide how much income we can keep. No mere “reform” of this slave tax, such as flattening the rate, can correct its fundamental denial of control over our own money. Only the abolition of the income tax itself will restore the basic American principle that our income is both our own money and our own private business - not the government's."
- "Replacing the income tax with a national sales tax would rejuvenate independence and responsibility in our citizens. True economic liberty and moral revival go hand in hand."
- "A national sales tax would also put the American citizen back in control of national fiscal policy. The best way to curtail government spending is to cut taxes, because they can’t spend what they don’t get. But with a sales tax, we could deny funds to a spendthrift government – and give ourselves a tax cut – whenever we make the private choice to alter our spending and saving habits."
It is a welfare program. The Social Security tax (or "contribution") takes money from people who earned it and gives it to someone else.
There is no lockbox. It is not a pension. You have no vested interest in your account, because there is no account. Social Security is a transfer payment like any other form of welfare.
"There are obviously those who hold such personal opinions."
And I'm very happy & proud to be among them. The idea of a NRST is not only bad based on economic grounds - it doesn't stand a chance of being passed (replacement taxes for the income tax have been floated for over 35 years & where have they gone). The repeal of a Constitutional Ammendment is just one tiny obstacle to overcome and would take years/decades to get done. Theories are great for discussion but don't mean anything unless they are really doable & the NRST is 'dead on arrival'.
"Essential consumption is not controllable...."
which is why the FairTax exempts all consumption spending up to the poverty level.
"If we are going to replace some tax with a progressive consumption tax, it should be the income tax, not the payroll tax. If done properly, this would increase incentives for work, saving and investment that would boost real economic growth."
Isn't that the proposal? Replace all fed gov deductions with the consumption tax?
"A very good description of the NRST."
I ask seriously, why? I have yet to see any objector to the NRST come up with a valid point to counter the supporters arguments. If you have one, put it on the table for all to see.
`SEC. 902. TRANSITION MATTERS.
`(a) Inventory-
`(1) QUALIFIED INVENTORY- Inventory held by a trade or business on the close of business on December 31, 2004, shall be qualified inventory if it is sold--
`(A) before December 31, 2006;
`(B) by a registered person; and
`(C) subject to the tax imposed by section 101.
`(2) COSTS- For purposes of this section, qualified inventory shall have the cost that it had for Federal income tax purposes for the trade or business as of December 31, 2004 (including any amounts capitalized by reason of section 263A of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 as in effect on December 31, 2004).
`(3) TRANSITIONAL INVENTORY CREDIT- The trade or business which held the qualified inventory on the close of business on December 31, 2004, shall be entitled to a transitional inventory credit equal to the cost of the qualified inventory (determined in accordance with paragraph (2)) times the rate of tax imposed by section 101.
`(4) TIMING OF CREDIT- The credit provided under paragraph (3) shall be allowed with respect to the month when the inventory is sold subject to the tax imposed by this subtitle. Said credit shall be reported as an intermediate and export sales credit and the person claiming said credit shall attach supporting schedules in the form that the Secretary may prescribe.
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