Posted on 05/25/2004 2:08:15 PM PDT by ambrose
Article Last Updated: Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 3:14:49 AM PST
How Marines kept Fallujah from becoming Dresden
Destroying the city ill-conceived; Marines make a pact with
ex-generals instead
By Tony Perry,, Los Angeles Times
Patrick J. McDonnell
and Alissa J. Rubin
FALLUJAH, Iraq -- The insurgents came at the Marines in relentless, almost suicidal waves. By the time the two-hour firefight in the Jolan district of this Sunni Muslim stronghold was over, dozens of anti-American fighters and one Marine were dead.
When the April 26 battle ended, Lt. Gen. James Conway, commanding general of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, knew something else: It was, in a microcosm, what house-to-house fighting might look like if the Marines were forced to storm Fallujah and, possibly, level a city of 300,000 people. He didn't like the look of the future battlefield.
Conway had been given authority to cut a deal. He had long spoken about "putting an Iraqi face" on the security forces here. From unexpected quarters, a chance suddenly emerged to accomplish that goal in spectacular -- if far from ideal -- fashion. The April 26 firefight came during an uneasy, and often broken, cease-fire between the insurgents and the Marines who had laid siege to the city earlier that month. At the time, the best hope for a peaceful resolution appeared to be the negotiations involving Sunni clerics, Fallujah civic leaders and sheiks, the Marines and U.S. occupation officials.
(Excerpt) Read more at trivalleyherald.com ...
You have any evidence of that?
Elfman is having some continuity problems with his little agenda-ridden storyline.
The elfman original contrivance was that the 1st Marines were on the scene loaded for bear, ready to take Fallujah by force and that politicians (i.e. Bush Administration) intervened and orchestrated a retreat.
Now, in the face of the above article that says the 1st Marines were never originally planning to wage an all out military assault on the city, but rather work their systematic "Ulster" campaign ... his little world is turned all upside down and he strikes out like an adolescent punk.
If you believe elfie on previous threads, the Marines wanted to go balls to the wall, were ready willing and able to "defeat" Fallujah, and were held back by feckless political betrayal. If you believe the story above, the Marines were thrown into combat by the President after the Blackwater butcherings, and are now back to square one working the plan they arrived with. After putting some bad guys into the out box. Elfie claims the Marines didn't use their air/heavy aromor ... well, the Marines didn't even have an air wing there. Must have been Bremer's fault. As we all observed, the late March ambush/desecration threw an unforseen political element into the mix, the Marines made an unequivocal but measured response, and now its back to executing what hopefully will be a winning plan.
Poor elfman. It's tough being a con man when you're too much a dullard to remember the details of your scam.
The bottom line is that this Fallujah campaign was, is and will always be a mix of military, political and "hearts and minds" action. The objective has never been to "defeat" Fallujah, or "level" Fallujah ... the goal is to stabilize, pacify and regularize Fallujah. And, it seems that Generals Conway and Mattis have WIDE latitude to make that happen. Not Paul Bremer or the weak-teet politicians stateside. And ... the pacification is slowly being done. To the chagrin of a small, but vocal, minority of slimy ideologues around this forum.
Evidence. Well, they didn't mount a full scale invasion of Fallujah, so I guess that speaks for itself. They didn't have Marine fixed wing air support. Evidence of that is that it was never used in Fallujah (because it didn't exist). That's why all the bombs were dropped by USAF and Navy jets, and AC-130's. And they had very few M-1's. But it's hard to prove something didn't exist there. Perhaps someone can provide a picture of a large number of Marine tanks (say more than 10) to prove they did have sufficient armor. I believe Gandalftb provided exact numbers. Maybe he can respond.
Marine armor means Marines operating armor that is tricked out by Marines, that is key. Marine armor is trained to support Marine infantry very closely as is Marine air. Waiting for an Army tank to show up, do a mission and then go back to its unit doesn't work.
Fact: 3 Marine battalions are directly engaged 24/7 with less than 5 tanks, and no Marine air or artillery. Air and infantry can deploy quickly but armor requires weeks by ship and should have been pre-staged with parts.
7 posted on 05/01/2004 3:58:20 PM CDT by gandalftb
All you did was argue that you don’t think they were capable of finishing their attack, rather than provide evidence that the Marines thought they weren’t capable of finishing their attack like I asked.
elfman2 just wanted to see a bunch of people die....for whatever reason.
Actually, I'm not arguing anything. I'm stating fact. Their initial operations in Fallujah were not the start of a full blown offensive. They never committed themselves to "an attack". Unless you believe digging into a parimeter is how Marines "attack" a city, you're going to have a hard time providing evidence the Marines ever launched a full scale offensive operation in Fallujah. But if you believe the Marines actually launched an attack, why did they do so before they had the armor and fixed wing support that they requested? Are you suggesting Marine leaders launched an attack without sufficient equipment to succeed?
You’re arguing with things I didn’t say because you have no evidence to support your disagreement with what I did say. I made no claim regarding how the Marines entered the battle for Fallujah, only that the ceasefire was not their decision or choice.
I gave the only evidence on either side of the debate, but it’s still to difficult for a few Administration loyalists to accept. So here you are, making up things to argue with. That’s very amusing…
Please provide your sources for this. Everything I have read has said that General Conway, the Marine commander was the one that ordered the ceasefire and negotiated the settlement.
So that’s your response to having no evidence to support your claims…
I don’t know how the battle began. I do know that Marines after the ceasefire were unable to use the assets they had, other than snipers. And I know Marines don’t choose to fight like that, and reports confirm it.
Maybe you could list the assets they had that they didn't lose, to validate your point.
It is not clear whether Conway conveyed the terms of the deal to his superiors in Baghdad and at the Pentagon, or even to leaders of the U.S. occupation authority. One person familiar with the deal said it took senior U.S. military and civilian officials in Baghdad by surprise. Because of the apparent lack of consultation, some officials said elements of the agreement, particularly the speedy troop withdrawal, may be tempered by the Pentagon or by the U.S. Central Command, which is in charge of operations in Iraq.
Sounds to me like Conway was doing all of this himself, but as your link points out, not all of the Marines liked it.
That is the way it should be. You have to let the commanders on the ground run the war....wouldn't you agree????
“The deal” is the eventual resolution of the cease fire with the Fallujah Brigade, not the "impostion" of ceasefire that restricted their operations for a month, and Bush eventually confirmed would stay in effect. That’s all I’m arguing was not the Marines’ choice.
The lack of a MAW delayed offensive efforts and cost us the initiative of a full sweep of Falluja before CentCom started complaining. There were only 5 operational Abrams and they were borrowed from the Army. 24 more showed up but too late to affect the battle. By the time they arrived the fighting was confined to al-Jawlan where the streets are too narrow to drive down, so they largely stayed on the cordon line.
This is my complaint: had there been adequate intel given to the Marines when they arrived as to the disposition of the enemy they would have waited until they had at least a MAW and swept all of Falluja before the whining started.
Puff is a nasty boy, but he only works at night and can't hold on a target, you need A-10s and Apaches and Cobras, hell, a dozen SkyRaiders with Freepers flying them could have done the job.
The lesson here is don't start a fight until you can prosecute it with full initiative and aggressiveness.
Then please be the first, of all the people who have argued their hearts out on this, to post some evidence of that. Even a lone reporter of some credibility would eclipse all the evidence for that claim to date.
...and as I said much earlier, his career is on the line. If this settlement fails, he is toast. Again, the way it should be.
Just out of curiosity, who do you pressume was the one pressing for a ceasifire...and why?
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