Posted on 05/24/2004 9:17:25 PM PDT by churchillbuff
ping
Many people say they "were once Catholic" to bolster their opinions of the Church. However, you don't know Catholicism if you think the Church denies the authority of Scripture. Nothing in the Deposit of Faith or Sacred Tradition contradicts Scripture. Where Scripture is silent, They are not.
That's not to say that every priest and every bishop teaches inerrantly the true Catholic faith. I have encountered many who interpose their own opinions and present it as Church doctrine. Look to the real history of the faith and the doctrines which have not changed in 2000 years and you find a seamless fabric.
Granted. But, that holds true for a lot of Christians. :-)
and after Mass, everyone heads out.
Not at our parish. We have coffee and donuts, so most everyone stays. :-)
>>Has Mr. Giles ever been to an Eastern Orthodox service? A Coptic service? An Ethiopian service? An Assyrian service? An Armenian service (which to me is still the most beautiful despite their theology and hostility to Israel)?
My guess is that Mr Giles gave many reasons for his conversion and this is the only one that sounded "weak" enough to merit reporting. Yes, I believe a journalist would take that approach in reporting on a religious matter.
That's not to say that every priest and every bishop teaches inerrantly the true Catholic faith. I have encountered many who interpose their own opinions and present it as Church doctrine. Look to the real history of the faith and the doctrines which have not changed in 2000 years and you find a seamless fabric.
I've found some wonderful inerrantist Catholic web sites since getting on the Net (something I didn't have access to when I was Catholic), but despite their protests of ultra-loyalty I'm afraid they won't get anywhere. As I said, the Vatican's official web site promotes the "documentary hypothesis," which is pure blasphemy. That seems a little more authoritative than a few private Catholic inerrantist/creationist sites here and there. What do you say when the Bishop of Rome promotes this stuff?
There are a lot of bitter ex-Catholics, and I admit that I am one of them. However, I hope you can understand my position when I, a student a liberal university, turned to "my" church for help against the blasphemies being taught and was told by my "denominational counsellor" that the way I believed wasn't Catholic and I should get out of the Church. I hope you have a little more respect for me than someone who left because he wanted to be "gay" or something.
I was baptized Catholic and raised Catholic. I went to Cornall University, and possibly because of the environment, my faith became luke warm.
I started attending born again Christian meetings. I met some beautiful people who had truly been saved. These people were simply happy that Christ had entered their lives and had saved them from the sins that they were engaging in. They had really turned their lives around.
However, there was also a lot of ignorance about Catholicism there as well. Probably about a fourth of the born again Christians that I met had converted that ignorance into hatred of Catholicism. There was no reasoning with the ignorant, they didn't want to know that what they'd heard about Catholics was simply not true. Many of these Protestants, in fact, based their faith on their hatred of Catholicism - not on their love of Christ.
When the leadership of the born-again ministry also engaged in this ignorance, I decided that I couldn't continue to participate in a group that was promoting lies. I returned to active participation in the Catholic church and have discovered that just as many, if not more, people that have been saved through the Catholic church.
I understand your bitterness. I was there recently. I nearly left the Church over issues in my local parish. I came back to the Church after much prayer, Scripture and research. What I found is that there is no other church with the fullness of faith.
That also makes us a target. The Church has been under assault from the outset. However, the doctrines of the faith have never waivered. In fact, although I forget the Pope's name, there was a Pope who was purposely installed by rival factions in the Faith to be one to change the tenents of the Church to conform to their view. He espoused their view before he became Pope but could not utter the heresy once ensconced.
I believe the Catholic faith but I am not one to bow to a priest's interpretation just because of his station... I research his position in the histories of the church--the early Christians. You have to remember, the priest is only an "assistant" to the bishop in the hierarchy of the Church. Each bishop is "head" of his diocese. The Pope is one of thousands of bishops. Like Peter, his predecessor, he listens to disagreements and speaks authoritatively when the magisterium lacks agreement (see Acts and the first councel in Jerusalem). He can also be rebuked for his personal behaviors and opinions (see Paul's rebuke of Peter for his treatment of gentiles).
Any priest who told you you should leave the faith rather than seek to instruct you has done a great evil.
I have a great deal of respect for you. You seem to be someone who is genuinely searching. I would encourage you to visit St Joe Publications for some invaluable resources in the faith.
As for what is on the Vatican's website... the Pope isn't a webmaster. There are a number of cardinals who have differing opinions... I would assume one has posted what you have referenced. I haven't read it, so I can't comment further.
People sin and live in error, even those in priest's robes. That was true BC and it's true AD. Look to the Church and not to individuals.
I've studied my Protestant friends and neighbors. They have a fire for Jesus that I appreciate--more so than my Catholic friends.
I've concluded that this comes from the nature of Protestantism. These are people who are truly searching for Christ. They are active in their faith and eagerly share the treasure they've discovered. There is life among them. They are a growing thing in the days of spring.
Most Catholics I've found are like people who inherit the treasure and take it for granted.
I think many of us need to have a crisis of faith to force us into research to find our roots again. Some parishes are starting to revive but many are simply "there". There is much work for us to do to revive the American Catholic Church.
This wasn't a priest (in fact, she was female), but as the official "Catholic denominational counsellor" for my school she carried in my eyes a certain amount of authority. Honestly, what is one supposed to think the Church as opposed to individual Catholics believes when all the Catholics one has met are lockstep (Biblical) liberals? I did once confess my horrible "sin" of Biblical literalism to an elderly priest in the confessional (I had been made to feel so guilty) and even though there was a line forming outside this elderly (and therefore, I assumed, relatively traditional) priest tried to talk me out of it by ticking off the "errors" in the Bible. And this attitude seems to be not only that of the clergy in one liberal area. The American Catholic Church is rather uniform, and it tends to wear its non- and even anti- Fundamentalism on its sleeve as the ultimate sign of its respectability.
I'm from the rural Bible Belt. I'm afraid that the vast cultural gulf between people like myself and the Catholic Church is vastly underestimated (most conservatives tend to think that all conservative chr*stians are basically the same). But no matter how ancient the Catholic Church may be, in America it means urban, ethnic, alcohol-drinking, gambling, dancing, bingo, hyper-intellectualism, higher criticism, evolutionism, and an ingrained hostility to the rural American heartland (Jews aren't the only ones who suffer from that disease!). As a converted Fundamentalist even when I wasn't being "proselytized" by liberal priests I felt that I was being patronized as a poor unfortunate whose simplistic beliefs were probably congenital (being a "redneck" and all). I could not forever remain in a church that regarded me (so it seemed) as a second class citizen while being governed by liberal, evolutionist, higher critical bishops. I'm afraid you do not properly appreciate the current Catholic reality if you expect history to answer every argument.
I have a great deal of respect for you. You seem to be someone who is genuinely searching. I would encourage you to visit St Joe Publications for some invaluable resources in the faith.
I appreciate your respect, and I respect you as well. However, I have no respect whatsoever for what almost all our religious leaders (of every faith) have become. These timid, apologetic, gutless nobodies are the current counterparts of those "terrible" tyrants who ruled the world and oppressed helpless dissenters for so long? I can't see how the practitioners of almost any religion have very much in common with their ancient ancestors.
I'm a Noachide, so I believe in the authority of the Orthodox Rabbinate, but these worthies (though far more Fundamentalist theologically than most chr*stians) only utter their fundamentalisms internally and seem to regurgitate the same old Voltairean/enlightenment garbage to the rest of the world. For example, as a Noachide I would appreciate some honest comments on Catholicism by the Rabbis on its errors. Instead, what do we get? They don't care about any errors so long as the Church is "tolerant" (you know, like Joshua was!). Witness the spectacle of Orthodox rabbis (though not all of them, thank G-d) invoking Vatican II (the higher critical council) and liberal Catholics because of their "tolerance." Unfortunately, the Orthodox Jewish community seems so hung up on tolerance and pluralism as the only conditions under which they may live safely that they are allergic to pontificating, and we Noachides believe they are the only religious leaders in the world qualified to do so! So the people we need to hear stay silent while everyone else never stops yapping, and the dreadful silence is only broken when a traditional Catholic violates "tolerance," and then we get not "you people are wrong and need to come around" but "you people should listen to your most radical elements." It sickens me.
Let's face it . . . only backwoods rural Southern Fundamentalists (both white and Black, though for some reason the latter are never seen that way) really seem to actually believe anything anymore. Why is it that every "illiterate" snake-handler and Hardshell Baptist preacher can thunder with righteous indignation while "the one true church" sounds like it's being run by the Campaign for Human Development? Doesn't this bother conservative Catholics at all? But if you've never been exposed to rural Southern Fundamentalism you can't know what someone converting from that background misses. And unfortunately, when one does find the rare articulate Catholic who comes close to the mindset of a Fundamentalist, they are usually fruitcake anti-Semites who blame the "Zionists" for every evil under the sun, and this merely reinforces the unbridgeable gulf between the two religions.
In fact, religion per se seems almost totally decrepit. Why is it that almost all religious leaders are chasing the atheist intellectuals for approval and slamming the "ignorant bumpkins" who have always been their most loyal constituency? Does G-d really love intellectuals so much more than common folk that gaining one of the former justifies the loss of millions of the latter? Religion as a whole deserves a kick in the tachat for its shameful betrayal of its loyal children (often condemned to win intellectual approval) by leaders who seem to prefer one Che Guevara to all the bumpkins in the world.
Ironically, the one exception to this rule is islam, which absolutely refuses to conform to he modern western worldview. And ironically, the Communists and ACLU-ers kiss its tush (even while referring to conservative chr*stians as "talibans," "al-qaedas" and "ayatollahs") while conservatives often sound like they want Saudi Arabia to adopt feminism as an official state ideology. As I said before, as anti-moslem as I am I will never engage in "theocracy"-bashing since I'm a Theocrat myself and to do so would be the worst form of hypocrisy on my part.
When will the religions of the world ever produce a leader with the simplicity and fearlessness of a backwoods redneck preacher or a moslem scarf-wearer?
PS, I'm afraid that I can't blame the higher criticism of the Vatican web site merely on the site maintainer. I'm absolutely certain the Pope is himself a higher critic (he's certainly an evolutionist), and I don't think there's a bishop in the world who doesn't share those opinions with him. Basically only Orthodox Jews, Noachides, and Fundamentalist Protestants retain the traditional view of the Bible. The Catholic Church, including very much its clergy all across the board, are the most enthusiastic supporters of German critical theories in the world today.
Just getting this far with some people would be a small victory.
I find very little to disagree with in your post (other than our theological differences). Thank you for going through a considerable effort to state your position.
Religious leaders are men and bow to men's frailties, including vanity and a desire to be liked by the "high-minded." No one, though, is beyond God's Will. In the end, all any of us can really do is pray for God's mercy and continue the work for which He uniquely fashioned us.
Catholic clergy have and use normal hair, too. Not that phony-baloney plastic stuff favored by pretend pastors.
If you have any questions, feel free to FReep Mail. I'll try my best to answer them.
On the general subject of creationism vs evolution, IIRC the official position of the Church takes the Biblical approach. Jesus said that a day for God is unfathomable for us. Where Genesis says God created the Earth in 6 days, we don't take that to be six revolutions of the Earth. God has been very consistent in history in using nature as His natural craftsman.
2 Peter 3:8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
Personally, I don't think its important whether you're Prostestant or Catholic, they are both Christian.
And for the dogmatic people on both sides of the isle - JUST LOOK ACROSS THE OCEAN, or EVEN RIGHT IN OUR OWN BACKYARDS.
There are people there who want to destroy Christianity - Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, whatever, as well as any other religions that impede their goal to conquer the world.
Think about it.
Catholics and Protestants and Orthodox Christians are all part of the same tree, and that tree is serious danger of being cut off at the roots.
2 Peter 3:8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day
I'm disappointed but not surprised to learn your view of creation (it is, after all, shared by almost all Catholics including those on FreeRepublic). As for nature as G-d's "natural craftsman," nature and the laws thereof did not exist until they were created during the Six Days (unless you want to make them pre-existent absolutes that governed the creation process from the outset, which is very much like insisting that a ticking clock must have ticked itself into existence). Even around people like you I would not fit into the Catholic Church and would be very miserable. Do these "laws of nature" bring about chr*stian miracles (water into wine, the resurrection, transubstantiation) in the same way, or is it only Jewish miracles that are explained away in this manner?
As for the quote, I don't accept the "new testament," but it's a quote from Tehillim. Still, does this mean that six thousand years were necessary (and I doubt you believe it took such a small amount of time) in order for the laws of nature to be absolutized during the creation process?
All the same, you have been kind to me, and I thank you, even though I shall never be at peace with anyone who mythologizes the Torah.
PS: Good luck to Mr. Giles when he encounters this type of thinking. I know somewhat of the hell of cognitive dissonance that he is in for. Choose well, Mr. Giles!
Yet you discount the words of Genesis as "figurative," perhaps even adaptations from pagan mythology. What is the difference between you and the people you are criticizing?
How long will Mr. Giles last? How much will he have to suffer?
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