9 Cal. vs. 50 Cal.
Posted on 05/21/2004 10:26:28 AM PDT by NJ Freeper
A Pizza Hut deliveryman who police say fatally shot a man on the city's east side Monday night says he acted in self-defense.
Ronald Honeycutt, 38, of Carmel, says he had just delivered a pizza at the Oaks Apartments around 11 p.m. Monday when a man approached him with a gun.
Honeycutt (pictured, right), who was near his delivery van and had his own gun, fired 15 times at the man, later identified as Jerome Brown, 20, of Indianapolis. Brown was taken to a hospital, where he was pronounced dead.
"The only thing I can do is protect myself, and if that means shooting somebody that intends to shoot you, so be it," Honeycutt told RTV6's Jack Rinehart Tuesday. "I'm sick of the crime and I'm sick of being victimized."
Honeycutt said that after the shooting, he picked up Brown's handgun and drove to a Pizza Hut, where sheriff's deputies took him into custody. Police questioned Honeycutt and then released him.
Pizza Hut, which has a policy forbidding deliverymen to carry weapons, fired Honeycutt soon after the shooting, Rinehart reported.
The county coroner's office Tuesday determined Brown died of multiple gunshot wounds.
Honeycutt said he used all the ammunition he had because Brown kept standing.
"The guy literally stood there the whole time with his arm up," Honeycutt said. "The whole time, I'm popping off rounds ... (and) the guy's still standing there after 15 rounds went off in him."
Honeycutt, who has a valid license to carry a firearm, said he planned to buy another handgun and go back to work with a different pizza business.
The Marion County prosecutor's office will review the case to determine whether Honeycutt acted in self-defense, Rinehart reported.
I will also not purchase from pizza hut. Disgusting policy.
Stay safe !
If you lived a protected life from such "exposure" where ya panic over a paper cut then you'll drop from a .22 rimfire round. I have been places where victims had never seen a TV show or Movie and didn't know they were supposed to fall down and die when shot.
The best chance one has in a handgun fight IMO is to make the fastest and quickest hits on his / her agressor with a modern hollowpoint projectile that has the speed and velocity to expell it's energy inside of a body cavity vs entry and exit hole and do such with as large a diameter "permanent wound channel" as possible be it a 40 short and wimpy or a nothing but 45 ACP !
Just my opinion.....Stay Safe !
Perhaps what's needed is a law which explicitly provides that a company shall not be held liable in cases where one of their employees uses a lawfully-caried firearm for self-defense, or what that employee claims to have believed was self-defense, unless the employer either supplies the weaponry or training or requires the employee to carry a weapon.
I'd never want to work for a company that cares more about the bottom line than about my welfare as an employee. If they pay me so much to help them stay in business, what business is of theirs if I protect my life? Don't forget, training a replacement employee is expensive. The no CCW policy of Pizza Hut and other pizza delivery companies is stupid. I agree, a company has a right to tell an employee to surrender company money or assets to a criminal if that is the employer's policy but no company that has to tell any one surrendering their lives is a condition for keeping their job.
I'm sure that is a sound theory. It appears that in reasonably powerful loads, like 9mm (not .380, .32, .25ACP...in which ball is best...so it penetrates at all..) the smaller the caliber, the more important expansion is for effectiveness, which then makes bullet integrity very important...so it doesn't just fall apart right away...and then again, even if it does expand, there needs to be enough velocity so that the expanded bullet doesn't prematurely slow down, and not sufficiently penetrate. Rocket science...even if it is on the way to a vital or structurally important "off switch."
Sooo....bigger and heavier is better, whenever possible...unless the range is long, and bullet drop would preclude an accurate hit. Yeow.
So I take it you are no fan of the miracle .40...er...10mm Short.
Stay Safe PM !
In November 1992, South Carolina Highway Patrolman Mark Coates shot an attacker four times in the torso with his 4 inch Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum revolver. His attacker, an obese adult male who weighed almost 300 pounds, absorbed the hits and shortly thereafter returned fire with one shot from a single-action North American Arms .22 caliber mini-revolver. Coates was fatally wounded when the tiny bullet perforated his left upper arm and penetrated his chest through the armhole of his vest where the bullet cut a major artery. Coates, who was standing next to the passenger-side front fender of the assailant's car when he was hit by the fatal bullet, was very quickly incapacitated.
The slaying was recorded by the video camera mounted in Coates' cruiser.
After Coates was hit, he immediately ran several feet, scrambling around the front of the assailant's car while simultaneously radioing dispatch that he'd been shot. As he neared the driver's-side front fender he suddenly collapsed onto the pavement.
Trooper Coates fired four 145 grain Winchester Silvertip .357 Magnum bullets directly into his assailant's heavy abdomen, achieving solid hits with each. These particular bullets penetrate deeper than 125 grain JHPs, however none ruptured any vital cardiovascular structures. During the initial ground struggle, Coates was shot twice, but his vest protected him. After fighting off his attacker, Coates quickly climbed to his feet and emptied his revolver. At that particular moment the assailant was still lying on the ground. The combination of the assailant's obesity and the unusual angle at which the bullets entered his body worked to the disadvantage of Trooper Coates.
The Coates shooting exemplifies the fable of energy transfer, especially when encountering a determined attacker. The .357 Magnum cartridge is regarded by many as the ultimate manstopper; a true one-shot stop wonder. The Winchester 145 grain .357 Magnum cartridge is given a one-shot stopping power rating of 86 percent by Marshall and Sanow. According to this rating system, a single hit ANYWHERE in the torso is supposed to be highly effective in stopping an attacker, regardless of whether or not the bullet destroys vital tissue. But on this night, it failed FOUR TIMES! The assailant easily absorbed four bullets in his body, each delivering over 450 foot pounds of kinetic energy. This is equivalent to being hit four times by a baseball going approximately 210 miles per hour.
None of Coates' powerful .357 Magnum bullets were effective, but the bad guy's weak .22 caliber bullet was. The .357 Magnum bullets dumped all their energy into the attacker, whereas the single .22 caliber bullet disrupted vital tissue. The assailant survived the shooting, was convicted of murdering Coates and was sentenced to life in prison.
Another shooting that was captured on video helps explain a reaction known as psychological collapse.
A few years ago, two Houston police officers cornered a suspected motorcycle thief at gunpoint against a chain-link highway perimeter fence. Upon being cornered, the suspect drew a revolver and threatened to kill himself. After negotiating for awhile, the officers convinced the suspect to put down his gun, and to catch and put on a pair of handcuffs that the officers were going to toss to him. The confrontation ended after the offender obtained the handcuffs, then reached to pick up the revolver that lay on the ground beside him. Despite a warning, he grasped and lifted the weapon. One officer opened fire with a Colt Government Model .45 ACP. Upon being hit in the right shoulder by a 230 grain Federal HydraShok JHP bullet, the surprised offender's facial expression instantly conveyed shock, horror and utter disbelief.
As he immediately slumped unconscious onto his left side, two more HydraShoks perforated his right upper arm and buried themselves in his right upper torso. The second officer, startled into reacting by the first officer's gunshots, fired several rounds from his Colt Combat Commander .45 ACP. He attained a single hit with a 185 grain Federal Hi-Shok JHP bullet, which perforated the offender's left arm and grazed, but did not enter, his left upper torso.
The offender survived the shooting, and according to Houston Police, the only vital structure hit by any of the bullets was the brachial artery of the right upper arm, which was repaired during surgery. The initial wound could not have caused the offender to collapse unconscious from blood loss as quickly as he did, nor were any central nervous system structures disrupted by the bullets. Although he rapidly collapsed unconscious after the first bullet struck him, there was no physiological reason for him to do so.
When a person is shot in the body with a handgun and falls down unconscious within a half-dozen seconds, it can only be attributed to a psychological reaction to being shot. This person simply faints from the sudden realization and fright that he has been shot, not from blood loss or any other reason. (This discussion does not apply to rifle bullets. Obviously, wild animals that immediately collapse after being shot by a centerfire rifle bullet do not faint from fright. The wound dynamics of rifle bullets are markedly different, but the physiological mechanisms are identical.) In order to be FORCED to collapse an attacker must lose at least 20 percent of his total blood volume (unless the bullet damages his brain or cervical spinal cord). This will take several seconds to occur, even with a direct hit to the aorta or vena cava with a large caliber bullet.
Most "stops" are psychological, not physiological in nature. The bad guy either faints or makes a voluntary decision to stop what he's doing. It's possible that a bullet with more "wallop," one that quickly delivers its energy and produces more blunt force sensation, might play a role in producing psychological collapse. But, psychological reaction to being shot is highly erratic and unreliable. It doesn't happen to everyone, especially a highly motivated attacker who's determined to cause as much harm as he can before he's stopped.
Unless you're clairvoyant, you cannot predict the exact circumstances of any self-defense situation you might find yourself in. Therefore, your goal in choosing a bullet for personal defense should be to select one that will be effective in as many different scenarios as possible. Your bullet must be able to penetrate deeply enough to contact and destroy tissue that is critical to the immediate survival of your attacker.
The two most important factors in stopping a bad guy are: 1) where you place your bullets, and 2) what organs your bullets penetrate and damage.
How much penetration is adequate? According to the nation's most prominent wound ballistics experts, your bullets should penetrate at least 12 inches of soft tissue. Penetration beyond 18 inches is considered too much, and a less penetrating design should be considered to optimize the cartridge's wounding potential.
But with small caliber cartridges such as .22 LR, .25 ACP, and .32 ACP (and sometimes .380 ACP), you're better off selecting a non-expanding bullet that might exceed 18 inches of penetration than to choose a bullet that expands and underpenetrates. When a bullet expands, the increased diameter and non-aerodynamic shape acts like a parachute to quickly slow and stop the bullet as it penetrates flesh. These tiny bullets lack the mass and momentum to achieve adequate penetration after they expand.
Bullets that meet the 12-18 inch penetration guidelines have proven to be very effective in police shooting incidents that have been investigated by reputable researchers who use the scientific method. These findings have been verified and validated by other distinguished wound ballistics researchers who've fully reviewed the data. These findings are far superior in validity to the Marshall/Sanow "one-shot stopping power" junk-science that is published in newsstand gun magazines.
Excerpt from:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm
Here's another tidbit re: the attacker still standing after shot:
"Mr. Diallo was standing practically against the door at the rear of the apartment entry, with his left side facing outward toward the officers, when he failed to obey the officers' orders, reached under his coat, came out with a black wallet - that appeared to be a gun in the dim light - and the shooting began.
The early shots entered his left side. These shots would have been unlikely to cause Mr. Diallo to give any perceptible sign that he had been hit. It should be noted that bullets penetrating a human body in most locations most often cause no immediate outward reaction in the person hit.
This comes as a surprise to most laymen since the entertainment media almost always shows such persons being knocked backward and the immediate appearance of blood at the supposed entrance wound. It must be emphasized that such reactions do not happen in real life.
In fact, the inability of policemen to be able to tell if their shots have hit is often a source of confusion and consternation for them during gunfights. To have a reasonable chance of surviving gunfights, police must be trained to continue firing until they are sure the threat has ended."
from:
http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/2/28/60241
I guess many police must be "trigger-happy" as well since they often empty their pistols in such close encounters of the ugly kind. While many, at least here in Texas, are "NRA fanatics" as well, they tend to be the ones who don't find themselves still pulling the trigger on an empty pistol.
T'wasnt' all that long ago that "no negras", "no wimmin", and "no old coots" was quite common practice. The last one still is in some areas and fields, where "old" starts at about 35 or 40.
Depends on wether the CHL/CCW data is public record. If it is, and it's keyed to other ID, such as driver's license number, then they could very well know of the CCW permit without ever seeing it. While the database is not generally a public record here in Texas, the CHL license has your DL number right on it, and the police (at all levels) have access to the cross index. In fact the law provides that all law enforcement agencies in the licensee's county of residence be notified when a CHL is issued. Other individuals can can ask the DPS if a particular individual is licensed, but they cannot obtain a list of all licensees. Thus Pizza Hut could request information on each of it's employees, or even applicants. There is no law prohibiting discrimation in employement based on possession of a CHL, or NRA membership for that matter.
If today's tort system were reasonable, I'd agree with you. But how much liability exposure should companies accept for their employees? IMHO, there needs to be a law which provides that employers shall not be liable for actions their employees commit with weapons unless:
IMHO, the best course of events here (aside from some states passing liability reforms) would be for someone at Pizza Hut to politely and confidentiality suggest that an employee lawsuit would be responded to with a reasonably-decent confidential settlement offer.
Stay Safe !
It's one of the common themes at the range I range I shoot at. If you are involved in any sort of shooting, righteous or no, the weapons are confiscated as 'evidence' for at long as the case remains open. This can take 6 to 12 months, or longer, even if no action is ever taken.
Subject normally comes up as we stare at the $2000 Wilson's. The thought of one of them rusting away on an evidence shelf, or worse, having the parts 'replaced' with junk just doesn't seem right. ;)
Better a standard reliable $450 service pistol that can be replaced.
Really shouldn't watch torture and punishment devices on the History channel as I type...
I should have done a ping. Didn't want to clog up your comments list.
Why do you think they call it Muttly?!!
I found some great info. there about shotgun loads for defense, too. I'll post them if anyone but us is interested.
Hey...what happened to the Gunshop Porch? Even the bang_list is antique. I'd love to disseminate this stuff to the troops.
(BTW..it said birdshot is a non-stopper..but # 1 Buck is tops, and doesn't overpenetrate, like 00)
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