Posted on 05/17/2004 7:06:39 AM PDT by qam1
bttt
I got into quite a discussion about this very issue many months ago on another thread. Consider the following verse:
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?
This verse is very clear that God does not change His mind. This is a human trait that we incorrectly ascribe to God.
There are a few places where the scripture seems to say the "God repented" or "God change His mind". In every case we went through, if you go back to the Hebrew (or even another translation), you'll find another explanation. God does not change. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Prayer is about our relationship with God. But I'm not sure it's solely about it. I think we should pray for this country and its leaders as well.
That's not an exact quote is it? The text doesn't say "change his mind". It say that he should "repent". Repent indicates sin. Indicates wrong. Repent is a different thing than changing ones mind. Don't you think?
I agree with you here. Now I might pray for my safety if I was going to take a European vacation. But I think praying for our safety is recognizing that it is God who takes care of us.
I agree with you here. Now I might pray for my safety if I was going to take a European vacation. But I think praying for our safety is recognizing that it is God who takes care of us.
I used the NIV deliberately to show the difference in translations. The NAS use "repent". I don't have time to go into a great deal of detail (I must run) but they are one in the same. The term repent is poorly translated. The NIV accurately translate the Hebrew word that God does not change His mind.
I think "repent" is a better translation of the Hebrew text than "change his mind". Especially when the rest of the verse is taken in the context.
I also believe God is persuaded by our prayers. He placed us in time and space -- His acting still depends on our asking. Yet He is eternal and all-knowing. We need Him and He wants us to freely submit to His will, even while He already knows the outcome.
Consider Abraham who kept asking for God to spare Sodom if only 50 righteous were found....on down to 10. Did God know Abraham would ask? I think so. But God placed Abraham in that time knowing he would make that decision to ask.
The Psalmist says "even before there is a word on my tongue, behold, O Lord, Thou dost know it all..." Yet the Psalmist prayed and prayed and prayed..."I love the Lord because He hears my prayers and answers them...He bends down and listens...I will pray as long as a breathe..."
God's knowing me fully does not absolve me of any responsibility whatsoever. He does hear and answer our prayers. He just happens to also know how this whole thing we call life turns out in the end. That's why our faith in Him is so secure. He knows the outcome. We don't. Yet our specific outcome is directly dependent on our free will. Both are true at the same time. It's the difference between our perspective and God's perspective. Our part is to submit to His will, to obey and trust Him. He does the rest.
I used to be better at explaining this.
The scriptures were written in way to make God and His ways understandable. So God uses human words and concepts so that we can understand
2ndly... I'll address your text when you address mine. The bible says clearly that God changed his mind at the request of Moses. Now you can twist that all you want, you can claim that the text was written by men, you can rationalize it away by asking me why I would then believe in the promise of salvation.... and whatever else you want to say.... the THE BIBLE SAYS GOD CHANGED HIS MIND.
.And it also says God does not change his mind.. I am not twisting anything, I am quoting the word of God, which you have still failed to address. How do you see the fact that over and over that the bible says God is faithful to His word with one line of scripture were there is one antopromorphic phrase?
You have not dealt with it because you can not. You have not dealt with how can you be secure that God will not flood the world again with water and destroy all men , or that He will withdraw his salvation from you?
How an you have faith in a fickle God? That is the question i am asking
You have just denied two of the attributes of God, omniscience and immutability ..are there any more that you want to eliminate as you go along?
There was a bumper sticker that was popular a few years back. Well, probably not popular with the calvinists.... but it simply said... "Prayer Changes Things". I believe it changes more than just our relationship with God.
Do you believe in the Foreknowledge of God at all? Does it seem unlikely that God would call us to prayer and have that be a part of his ordained plan?
Jesus said that God knows our needs before we pray . He says that we are to pray not in our will but in His.
We do not find any instruction in the Bible teaching us to petition God to change His mind. Instead we find in every example of prayer in Scripture is agreement with God, asking Him to do those things He has already committed Himself to do.
Prayer is the ordained means of communication between God and His people. We alone have the honor to approach the throne of God . But the prayer is not to change the mind of God, but that we have peace with His will.
“Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.” (Phil. 4:6-7)
I always find it interesting that the same people that say Calvinists think man is a puppet of God are the same ones that ask God to infringe on the free will of others for something they want.
If you insist that man must have the power of ultimate self-determination (by free will) , what is the point of praying for him?
What do you want God to do to Him to change him? Are you not asking God to violate the mans free will?
Calvinists believe that God has ordained the means as well as the end. He calls us to participate in His work, not only preaching the gospel , but in petitioning His help in difficult circumstances .It is God the Holy Spirit who moves upon our hearts to pray. In obedience and confidence, we can pray that God will accomplish His own purposes as He wills. By the means appointed to us, namely prayer, we have the honor to call upon God to bring to pass those things that we desire. We pray because God has commanded it, especially that petition that His will be done on earth as it is in Heaven (Luke 11:2) . Our prayer is to line up with the will of God, not line God up with OUR will. If it is the will of God, it will come to pass.
If you believe you can change the mind of God through your prayers, I hope you use discretion. If that is the power you have, it is certainly a most dangerous thing. We know God does not need our counsel in order to set up what is desirable.God knows all minds and hearts, does not need to have us intervene to tell Him what He ought to do. The thought that we are changing the mind of God by our prayers is a terrifying concept..
This is a devotional that I think makes the point
Does Prayer Change Things ?
They say that prayer changes things, but does it REALLY change anything?
Oh yes! It really does!
Does prayer change your present situation or sudden circumstances?
No, not always, but it does change the way you look at those events.
Does prayer change your financial future?
No, not always, but it does change who you look to for meeting your daily needs.
Does prayer change shattered hearts or broken bodies?
No, not always, but it will change your source of strength and comfort.
Does prayer change your wants and desires?
No, not always, but it will change your wants into what God desires!
Does prayer change how you view the world?
No, not always, but it will change whose eyes you see the world through.
Does prayer change your regrets from the past?
No, not always, but it will change your hopes for the future!
Does prayer change the people around you?
No, not always, but it will change you~ the problem isn't always in others.
Does prayer change your life in ways you can't explain?
Oh, yes, always! And it will change you from the inside out!
So does prayer REALLY change ANYTHING?
Yes! It REALLY does change EVERYTHING!
We can only wish they would be happy with Welk! Think one hundred years before that! We would start with 2 or 3 old standard hymns. Later in the service the praise band would lead in a combination of newer praise songs and some really old southern gospel which the band leader does very well. The choir and certain soloists had started adding the use of accompaniment tracks. That really made them mad. We had tried introducing the motto "If you don't like this song, wait 15 minutes and we will have something you like." Sunday we heard that the praise band is "destroying the church's sound equipment".
Truth is those under 60 are not really welcome in this church.
No one is dening that many heard this teaching , the question is who was the target
He saw the multitudes and he walked away from them ...to the mountain, then his disciples came , and then some of the multitude(perhaps all) then followed. . Jesus was known to withdraw from large crowds.
You can get as upset as you want K, but the fact is the teaching was directed at the disciples /elect (as were all public teachings BTW)
Mat 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
From Darby (no Calvinist)
He then gathers around Him those who were definitively to follow Him in His ministry and His temptations; and, at His call, to link their portion and their lot with His, forsaking all beside
Matthew Henry puts it well
III. The auditors were his disciples, who came unto him; came at his call, as appears by comparing Mk. 3:13, Lu. 6:13. To them he directed his speech, because they followed him for love and learning, while others attended him only for cures. He taught them, because they were willing to be taught (the meek will he teach his way); because they would understand what he taught, which to others was foolishness; and because they were to teach others; and it was therefore requisite that they should have a clear and distinct knowledge of these things themselves.
The problem is that you don't know who else in that crowd was part of "the elect". You assume that none were. But you don't know. You're just making assumptions and then stating them as fact.
You asked how I can be secure in my salvation. Be secure that God won't jerk it from me if he changes his mind? That security comes from the understanding that I can't do anything about it if he decides to. I don't think he will because he has promised not to. Breaking a promise is a different thing than changing ones mind. But the bottom line is this, my faith tells me that there is not a blooming thing I can do about it. God will save me or he won't. I have placed my faith completely in him and what Jesus Christ had done on the cross in accordance with the teaching of the Bible. It's His universe. He created it. He'll do with it as he pleases. He'll save those He chooses to save. He is under no obligation to a higher power. And He has promised to save those who believe in His son who was crucified on the cross and risen from the dead. What a way to save us. That's faith. Knowing that it is solely in his hands and at his discression.
And over time, God prooves himself to us if you let him. So that over time it doesn't take faith to believe, or to be assured. You know because God has demonstrated it to you.
Why do I believe that he won't break his promise to me? Because I'm trusting him not to. But beyond that, what could I possibly do to save myself?? Nothing. Not a single thing according to God's word.
I've heard people painfully argue that "God can't break his promise". "God can't do things against his own nature... yada yada yada." All these are ideas to give comfort. My comfort is in knowing that there is not a single thing I can do about it, except trust him. And I do that wholeheartedly.
Kj I respect you as a brother in Christ..but I am not the one with a problem reading the text here honest.
The parable of the sower teaches us that the seed is sewn in all sorts of soil. Not just the good soil. When Jesus gave the sermon on the mount. He was sewing the seed in all sorts of soil. And it took root in a lasting way in the good soil.
Actually your correct, repent is a better word. That's what I get for trying to do this from memory and not having my text books. In fact in my argument many months ago I was indeed arguing that it meant repent. I'm going senile.
The word is nacham and means to be sorry, console oneself, am sorry, appeased, become a consolation, change mind, repent, sorry, think better. Among other things.
However, the strong implication from this word is that God is never sorry, never appeases, never change His mind, never repents.
I did not say that . In that multitude there may have been others that followed Him off the mountain. That was not my point, my point is that His disciples were the audience to whom the teaching was directed.
You asked how I can be secure in my salvation. Be secure that God won't jerk it from me if he changes his mind? That security comes from the understanding that I can't do anything about it if he decides to. I don't think he will because he has promised not to. Breaking a promise is a different thing than changing ones mind
No , you may want to reconsider this statement. He had a promise ( a covenant ) with Abraham and Abraham had no responsibility to keep it , God was to keep the covenant for both of them. Read what Moses told God he should not destroy them
Exd 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit [it] for ever. Changing His mind broke the promise.
The foreordained plan was the seed was ordained to come through a line that included Rahab (a part of Joshua's plan )
I have absolute security in my salvation because I have the word and promise of God on it. I know God does not change His mind .
But the bottom line is this, my faith tells me that there is not a blooming thing I can do about it. God will save me or he won't. I have placed my faith completely in him and what Jesus Christ had done on the cross in accordance with the teaching of the Bible. It's His universe. He created it. He'll do with it as he pleases. He'll save those He chooses to save. He is under no obligation to a higher power. And He has promised to save those who believe in His son who was crucified on the cross and risen from the dead. What a way to save us. That's faith. Knowing that it is solely in his hands and at his discression.
No that is not faith , that is doubt. That is saying you hope that God is faithful. Faith is KNOWING and TRUSTING God is faithful to His word and He will never leave you or fore-sake you .
Why do I believe that he won't break his promise to me? Because I'm trusting him not to. But beyond that, what could I possibly do to save myself?? Nothing. Not a single thing according to God's word.
This brings us back to how can you trust him not to change his mind?
Indeed there is nothing we can do to save ourself. The difference between you and the reprobate is you care they do not .
I've heard people painfully argue that "God can't break his promise". "God can't do things against his own nature... yada yada yada." All these are ideas to give comfort. My comfort is in knowing that there is not a single thing I can do about it, except trust him. And I do that wholeheartedly.
KJ that is not hope or faith that is helplessnes and hopelessness
There is not one wit of comfort in your position
BTW you need to be careful some of what you say sounds like a Calvinist , but you are lacking our assurance in the faithfulness of God
The seed is the word of God. The Gospel is preached in all kinds of soil , that is the command..but it will only root in the soil that the has been tilled by the Holy Spirit to accept it
LOL Do they have one JS's home girls?
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