Photo may show intelligence officers in charge at Abu Ghraib

MSNBC ^ | May 13, 04 | MSNBC

[churchillbuff]

Abusive treatment under the supervision of military intelligence officers may have been intentionally used as part of the interrogation of Iraqi captives at the Abu Ghraib prison, according to a previously unpublished photograph of U.S. soldiers and other personnel obtained by NBC News.

The photograph was taken during the interrogation of several Iraqi prisoners who are depicted naked in a heap on the floor, according to a military police officer who faces a court-martial in connection with alleged abuses at the notorious facility on the outskirts of Baghdad.

The officer, Spc. Charles A. Graner Jr., 35, of Greene County, Pa., is leaning against the wall in the photograph, which was provided by his attorney, Guy Womack.

[George W. Bush]

You can choose to believe Sivits or not. But argue about actual testimony rather than egregious speculation.

Actually, I'm willing to believe Sivits and I think that Sargent Slut is saying she acted on orders because the videos won't let her cry rape.

I don't think there is high-level involvement in this. I'd be surprised if even a colonel knew about it. But heads should roll anyway. Those officers are responsible for the troops and for the prisoners. And this is even more true when we are not engaged in a shooting war and have settled into a garrison that is policing against recidivist elements and opportunistic terrorists.

I don't like to think that the record of those who have served the country honorably should be blackened in the public's mind by this. Or that the image of the American military should suffer around the world because of a few idiots who were sexually abusing their prisoners.

[oceanview]

check the polls on Rumsfeld. His numbers are better then Bush. Now you are comparing Bush to Nixon?

[cyncooper]

Here is what General Taguba said.

He said it was this rogue group on their own volition and low level and not under any orders, written or otherwise.

Idiotic MSNBC is straining mightily to make this story keep going the way they wanted, but the facts will triumph in the end.

General Taguba testimony

excerpts:

MCCAIN: In your judgment, were these abuses as a result of an overall military or intelligence policy to quote, "soften up detainees for interrogation"?

TAGUBA: Sir, we did not gain any evidence where it was an overall military intelligence policy of the sort. I think it was a matter of soldiers with their interaction with military intelligence personnel who they perceived or thought to be competent authority that were giving them or influencing their action to set the conditions for a successful interrogations operations.

~snip~

BYRD: It's becoming clear to me that this abuse wasn't just about values, it was about policies and planning.

General Taguba, based on your investigation, who gave the order to soften up these prisoners, to give them the treatment? Was this a policy? Who approved it?

TAGUBA: Sir, we did not find any evidence of a policy or a direct order given to these soldiers to conduct what they did. I believe that they did it on their own volition. I believe that we did collaborate it with several M.I. interrogators at the lower level, based on the conveyance of that information through interviews and written statements.

TAGUBA: We didn't find any order whatsoever, sir, written or otherwise, that directed them to do what they did.

~snip~

CORNYN: How many individuals do you believe were involved in this abuse at Abu Ghraib?

TAGUBA: Sir, directly there were those six or seven, I believe. I know that the ongoing investigation continues under Article 32. I don't know anybody -- of any others.

In terms of those soldiers' supervisors and leaders, I illuminated that on my report, I believe there were a total of 17 that I identified.

~snip~

[milagro]

And Morocco is still French--right?

[adam_az]

"if rumsfeld cares about bush getting re-elected, he will resign. i do not want kerry in the white house."

That must be why polls show almost 70% of Americans don't want Rummy to resign, right DOCTOR?

[drhogan]

i agree--and we shouldn't know the details of interrogations of terrorists now. real interrogations shouldn't even be taking place in iraq. and we shouldn't be seeing pics. this is an amateur operation. marshall and ike were professionals.

[Huntingtonian]

Come on folks, can we read around here?

The use of the term officer was in reference to the SPC's status as a "military police OFFICER"

The officer, SPC... means "The Military Police Officer, SPC..."

I'm sure the author and editors know the difference between commissioned and enlisted ranks. The sentence reflects little more than sloppy writing and editing (using the term officer carelessly in an article on the military).

nuff said

[Luis Gonzalez]

"Hint: they would attack Jesus Christ himself"

They did, or at least the movie of His passion.

[cyncooper]

See my post #63 and realize that MSNBC is eagerly accepting the representations of a defense attorney of a non-credible man.

They should be ashamed of either being outrageously ignorant, or so partisan and eager to find a scandal they don't bother to research.

Disgraceful.

[George W. Bush]

The unofficial term is "crew slut".

Thanks for the technical term. I couldn't recall it.

The woman is a disgrace to the uniform.

[cyncooper]

And how has President Bush let you down?

I'm on pins and needles waiting to hear.

Certainly there is nothing in this story (and "story" it is) that lends itself to your lament.

[milagro]

OOPs--make that Algeria!! Point still the same, though. The French screwed up bigtime in Algeria--and we don't need to learn anything from them!

[drhogan]

i don't think french imperialism was a viable policy in the long run. in the short run, the paratroopers' operation against the terrorists was effective. (they didn't take pictures, by the way.)
the SAS doesn't take pictures when they shoot ira terrorists.
i don't think any operation against the people of a country will be effective in the real long-term. that is very different from fighting an anti-terrorist campaign. the second is limited, the first is open-ended and perpetual.

[drhogan]

no, i wasn't comparing bush to nixon. i was comparing rumsfeld's arrogance to the arrogance of nixon's guys.
as far as polls, nixon's misdeeds did not become apparent until after his re-election. he ran real well against mcgovern. but this iraq stuff is breaking earlier, and the pics are what is making it a real PR problem.
the longer this stays front page news, the better for kerry. and there are a lot more pics and a VIDEO that haven't come out yet.

[Libloather]

Graner identified four other soldiers in the photograph, labeled Nos. 4, 5, 7 and 8 in the copy provided to NBC News, as military intelligence officers, who he said were in charge of interrogations at the prison. A civilian translator is labeled No. 2, and Graner is No. 1.

I would pay good money to see this much detail on the conniving insiders at the NY Times. What are the chances?

[drhogan]

there are more pics and a video that only congress has seen so far. if these get out on the news, the poll numbers may change. also, if the MP's lawyers are able to make the case that higher-ups OK'd the abuse, poll numbers may change. there will be at least 7 trials, and the public always loves to blame higher-ups rather than lower-level soldiers.
also, people haven't all read what the real interrogation guidelines are--they allow "stress positions" and the use of dogs. and it was the military people who tried--unsuccessfully--to stop the guidelines. it was politicos and lawyers in the defense dept that pushed the guidelines thru. the more people hear about this stuff, the worse the polls will look.

[Chgogal]

Sir,

My uncle was an infantry soldier in a SS Panzer Division. He died in Normandy. He was just 18 years old. My mother and grandmother were in Berlin in 1945. They were homeless from February 1945 on wards. My mother walked the burning streets dead center wearing a gas mask looking for shelter and food. She was separated from her mother many a day. After the fall of Berlin she had to avoid the Russians to avoid rape. If you know your history, then you are aware of these facts. My grandfather was a POW in Italy (better than being in Russia though). In spite of those mean American Bombs and that mean American Occupation, my mother was determined to become an American citizen. Why, because European leadership sucked (and still sucks).

What the US did in Europe, Japan and South Korea was magnificent. Because of the Greatest Country in the world(that's right the USofA) Europe has flourished in peace. Under European leadership, Europe was in a constant state of war until May 1945 (we are talking centuries here and millions upon millions of deaths). It cost America hundred's of thousands of lives. But we did it. The peace then cost us millions and millions of dollars. But we won it. The same with Japan and Korea.

After 9/11, President Bush had three choices; 1) do nothing like Clinton (which led to 9/11), 2) bomb any Arab/Muslim country a la Germany and Japan who threatened the USA or 3) completely change the dynamics of the ME. President Bush being an optimistic and hopeful American choose option 3). How it will turn out is any body's guess. Option 2) is always available to us.

Now, considering how successful we American's have been in keeping the peace in Europe, Japan and the Korean peninsula, I think that we have a fair chance at succeeding in Iraq. It won't be easy but so what. We Americans have succeeded where others have failed. Whether it is building the Panama Canal (France as usual failed), going to the moon, winning wars or winning the peace. America has a record of success. You may not be appreciative of that record of success, but my family sure as heck is.

In other words, I trust President Bush and his cabinet a heck of a lot more than you and your ilk.

[cyncooper]

Taguba before the Senate Armed Services Committee

Exerpt:

ROBERTS: I'm going to repeat the question by Senator Byrd: Did these changes result from orders or direction from the military intelligence unit at the prison.

TAGUBA: Sir, there were interaction between the guards and the military interrogators at that level.

ROBERTS: But the changes were not policy?

TAGUBA: No, sir.

~SNIP~

[oceanview]

actually, I suspect the backlash is already underway. americans quickly tire with a story like this - another photo leaks out every day; first the nudity, then the hoods, then the human pyramids, then the use of a dog that was "heinous torture", now the sex video of US soldiers - all presented without context.

actually, its breaking too early for the Dems. This would have been a better story in mid October, or even closer to election - like the Bush DUI story. The Dems pulled the trigger too early.

[okie01]

"Actually, I'm willing to believe Sivits and I think that Sargent Slut is saying she acted on orders because the videos won't let her cry rape.

"I don't think there is high-level involvement in this. I'd be surprised if even a colonel knew about it."

I'm inclined to agree. This offense was performed by a group of grievously miscast miscreants -- with a broad streak of perversion.

That said, the officers immediately responsible for them have abrogated their own duty. Brig time for the Abu Ghraib Seven...while their immediate superiors get cashiered.

This affair was the very definition of a tempest in a teapot. The military justice system was handling it in an expeditious and competent way.

Until somebody leaked the photos to the media, who were desperate to score political points...and blew the affair completely out of proportion.

Sure, the behavior was humiliating, it was completely improper, it was wrong, wrong, wrong!. But it was not torture. And, while wrong, it was not beyond the pale -- as demonstrated by the fact that it could be safely shown to the American public, 24/7.

Quite unlike the unspeakable things done by others...