Fallujah: High Tide of Empire?

http://www.amconmag.com ^

[jpsb]

"Neither world nor American opinion would put up with the carnage involved."

Then we can't.

[gcruse]

Pat Buchanan increasingly rides to the sound of his own gums.

[VRWC For Truth]

Oh, I did read it.

It's the same tirade that Fascist boy has been on, since he got booted out of the loop.

[Age of Reason]

The Philippines have been fraught with turmoil, with martial law, with political violence--for much of the hundred years since the U.S. acquired it from Spain.

Even more than a century later, the success of the Philippines is too early to judge.

[gcruse]

but once mortage rates go back up above 8%, then the public will see that deficits do matter

That's a good point.  But the debt now is financed by issuing bonds at the current interest rate, which debt holders buy.  When rates go up, the face value of these bonds will decline, but only if they are sold before their expiration date..  Otherwise, they mature at today's low rate and are retired.  Does current debt have to worry about future interest rates?   I'm not sure it does.

[fourfivesix]

I bow to your logic and learned reasoning.

[fourfivesix]

post 42

[fourfivesix]

I'm a little slow this morning. Explain to me how Buchanan is a fascist for opposing war when fascism has been proven to be agressive, bellicose and pro-war?

[Beenliedto]

Pat, what B*LL!! We ALL know that 80% of US Federal budget is non-military. that is right $400 billion on military and $1700 billion on the rest. If we have a deficit, it is due to domestic boondoggles, medicare and other things - NOT the fact that we are spending some small slice of our budget (and it is small, even the $80 billion was just 4% of the budget) in stabilizing Iraq.

I think you're putting words in Pat's mouth here. He wasn't arguing about what was causing the deficits and the related fall in the dollar.

He was only making the argumant that the dollar is in trouble. And that nations with currency problems typically don't go on empire building adventures.

[RichInOC]

Pat Buchanan is afraid of the sound of guns.

(Real ones, of course. The ones he used to hear in his head as he rode off to run for president don't count.)

[Light Speed]

To really understand Pat..one must see him in his element...on The McLaughlin Group Program.

Pat is much like the youngest boy in a family..who has chosen his sister..[In this case..Eleanor Clift]....as the solution to his inner need for total attention of the family.

Pat is very smart..has a great memory,
yet...Sister[Eleanor Cift] undoes him in a millisecond.
Pat fires back...Eleanor transfixes on Pat..the burning eye's hint at possible physical detriment if this were not a public program.
and of course..... Pats mischevious grin after the volley's.

Like a semi dysfunctional Family at the breakfast table..this program is a classic for one liners and body message language.

Father John can hardly contain himself at times..the laughter and head posturing..

"So Pat....where you ever a Boy Scout"?

"Exit question...on a scale of 1-10...10 being the fall of Pompeii.....Eleanor will jump Pat upstairs before bedtime"

[KC_for_Freedom]

The Iraqis don't want our version of liberty. They either watch us die or take part in killing us.

I have heard often that the Arabs/Islamics are going to the trouble of trying to kill us all to keep western democratic ideas out of their country. Lets assume there is some truth here.

If this is the case, then Bush is pushing a big new western type of state into the heart of the Middle East. He may or may not succeed. And the country that results may or may not be a democracy. But there is no doubt that the western ideas have a toehold in the country and the message is, Keep atacking the west and you will see more of this. End result, if they are attacking us to keep us out, their attacks are bringing us in. It seems like a tit for tat policy and one we should follow. I don't agree with Pat that winning this war is not worth a few American lives, but I do agree that the number should be kept minimized and if this is what is behind Bush's current policy, I can get behind it.

As to their attitude about our help, it would appear that we underestimated the idea that people everywhere yearn for freedom. I agree that Iraq does not deserve to be free at this point.

[jpsb]

I'd be very happy if Iraq turned into another Philippines, but like you say, it would take many many years of American rule. I don't see it happening.

[fourfivesix]

"it would take many many years of American rule"

and many, many American lives.

[x]

Judging from the article, Werwolf doesn't seem to have aroused any enthusiasm among the general population or to have drawn foreign volunteers into the battle. They seem to have been hardcore adherents of the old regime with little broad or deep appeal to most Germans who kept their heads down and got on with the rebuilding. Average Germans might have been less likely to work with the occupying powers, but that's about it. I don't know just exactly who is fighting against us in Iraq, but the potential is for a far worse situation than in Germany when one adds religious fanatics, foreign volunteers, and nationalist fervor to hard-core Saddamists.

At the same time, from 1945 to about 1949, there was also guerrilla fighting going on in Ukraine, Lithuania, Poland and elsewhere that was bloodier and more disruptive than what was going on in Germany. The Greek Civil War was even worse. It's too early to say about Iraq, but in the context of the times and in retrospect, postwar German resistance doesn't look like much.

[iconoclast]

What we NEED are Iraqi security forces that can help patrol the streets that are reliable.

Perhaps I'm just a little ole ignorant feller from flyover country, but isn't turning control over to a Republican Guard general just a little like as if we had turned over security in Germany to the Waffen SS in 1946?

[fourfivesix]

there is very little to compare between post-war Germany and postwar Iraq. People don't seem to understand that we're making history not reenacting it.

[iconoclast]

Obviously you didn't read the article.

They never do!

They call Pat fascist as our nation creeps in that direction with every passing day.

They are zombie-like neocons who ironically ask regularly "what is a neocon?".

[ASA Vet]

Then we can't.

We missed the 9/12/01 window.

[Petronski]

The very premise of the article--'empire'--is defective.

Trouble is, I can't tell if Buchanan is being deliberately devious or just is dumb as bag of Sakrete.