Humvees are proving easy prey on the streets of Iraq Posted on 04/28/2004 10:14:41 AM PDT by Destro
Replace the hopeless Humvee, Pentagon chiefs are urged
By David Rennie in Washington
(Filed: 28/04/2004)
Humvees are proving easy prey on the streets of Iraq
Armoured cars being sent to Iraq are not up to the job, according to a senior United States army general, prompting calls for Pentagon chiefs to swallow their pride and reactivate thousands of mothballed Vietnam-era armoured personnel carriers.
With improvised bombs, rifle fire and rocket-propelled grenades taking an ever deadlier toll on coalition forces, the Pentagon is spending £225 million to replace thin-skinned versions of the Humvee, the US military's ubiquitous jeep-like transport, with an "up-armoured" model, as fast as they can be churned off the production line.
Commanders have shuddered as troops attached home-made armour plating and even sandbags to ordinary Humvees, whose thin skin, canvas doors and shoulder height windows have made them highly vulnerable to attack.
The new, armour-plated Humvees have been touted by Pentagon chiefs as the best solution to complaints from the field about the standard version of the vehicle.
But Gen Larry Ellis, the commanding general of US army forces, told his superiors that even the armoured Humvee is proving ineffective.
In a memo leaked to CNN television, he wrote: "Commanders in the field are reporting to me that the up-armoured Humvee is not providing the solution the army hoped to achieve."
Reports from the field say that even with armour plating, the Humvee's rubber tyres can be burnt out by a Molotov cocktail, while at two tons, it is light enough to be turned over by a mob.
Gen Ellis said it was "imperative" that the Pentagon instead accelerate production of the newest armoured personnel carrier, the Stryker, which weighs 19 tons and moves at high speed on eight rubber tyres.
But the Stryker has many influential critics who say it is too big to be flown easily on the military's C-130 transport aircraft, and too cumbersome to manoeuvre in narrow streets. Instead, they want the Pentagon to turn back the clock and re-deploy thousands of Vietnam-era M-113 "Gavin" armoured personnel carriers, which are still used by support and engineering units, and are held in huge numbers by reserve units.
Gary Motsek, the deputy director of support operations for US army materiel command, said: "I have roughly 700 113-series vehicles sitting pre-positioned in Kuwait, though some are in need of repairs. I have them available right now, if they want them."
heh-heh, you could do the same thing to a Hummer, and everyone could just climb out of the top. :)
Yep. Of course the driver and front seat passenger would have to take turns, after crawling over the backs of their seats. Anf though the Humvee would be more RPG resistant, it still won't stop a 7,62mm AK round, and a molotov cocktail will light it right up.
The IED that took out the M1 Abrams was three 100-pound warheads from a vehicle-mounted ground to air guided missile. Build a better mousetrap, breed smarter mice
So? A 105 or 155mm based IED is still going to eat up a 113, and those are what I was talking about.
Yep. But the shrapnel won't do the damage to a M113 Bucket that it will to a Humvee or Stryker.
Of course, the Sturmtiger wasn't amphibious or air-transportable.
In 1977 the Gratzl concept was revived by a consortium consisting of Krauss Maffei, FMC and Rheinmetall and the vehicle was modified by replacing the original Abbott gun with the Rheinmetall developed version of the US M101 gun and moving it close to the centreline of the vehicle. The vehicle was fitted with a new aluminium armour enabling it to resist 14.5mm rounds at the front and 7.62mm/shell fragments at the sides and rear. The roles envisioned for the vehicle include Anti-tank, Artillery fire support, Mechanised infantry combat vehicle, Personnel carrier and Reconnaissance vehicle. It is capable of carrying seven crew and additional personnel could be carried by removing some of the ammunition racks.
Mein Gott! Sammi- im Schlamm, wieder?
My son Gavin is in the Army and works on armoured personnel carriers. I never knew there were some called "Gavin."
I like that kind of thinking.
That's right, *Swim Barrier* is what they're called on a Brad. Splashboards [that kept a wave from rolling over the front of the vehicle anf filling the vehicle through the driver's hatch] or *surfbreaker* was for the M113. I recall the old M114 was also an amphib, but I don't it needed that sort pf preparation. Even the M551 Sheridan had a floatation screen that'd let it get ashore in gentle surf or cross a real gentle pond once the thing was erected around the sides.
I like that kind of thinking.
That destroys the vehicle, though. Wasteful. But a release of a suitable chemical agent would offer no such difficulty....
Haven't you heard? There are no WMD's in Iraq. So if anything of Saddam's gets turned loose, it never happened. The mixture of tear gas and a vomiting agent is a real fun way to get anyone wearing a protective mask to take it off though. CN-DM is the agent you'd want to use.
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