Humvees are proving easy prey on the streets of Iraq Posted on 04/28/2004 10:14:41 AM PDT by Destro
Replace the hopeless Humvee, Pentagon chiefs are urged
By David Rennie in Washington
(Filed: 28/04/2004)
Humvees are proving easy prey on the streets of Iraq
Armoured cars being sent to Iraq are not up to the job, according to a senior United States army general, prompting calls for Pentagon chiefs to swallow their pride and reactivate thousands of mothballed Vietnam-era armoured personnel carriers.
With improvised bombs, rifle fire and rocket-propelled grenades taking an ever deadlier toll on coalition forces, the Pentagon is spending £225 million to replace thin-skinned versions of the Humvee, the US military's ubiquitous jeep-like transport, with an "up-armoured" model, as fast as they can be churned off the production line.
Commanders have shuddered as troops attached home-made armour plating and even sandbags to ordinary Humvees, whose thin skin, canvas doors and shoulder height windows have made them highly vulnerable to attack.
The new, armour-plated Humvees have been touted by Pentagon chiefs as the best solution to complaints from the field about the standard version of the vehicle.
But Gen Larry Ellis, the commanding general of US army forces, told his superiors that even the armoured Humvee is proving ineffective.
In a memo leaked to CNN television, he wrote: "Commanders in the field are reporting to me that the up-armoured Humvee is not providing the solution the army hoped to achieve."
Reports from the field say that even with armour plating, the Humvee's rubber tyres can be burnt out by a Molotov cocktail, while at two tons, it is light enough to be turned over by a mob.
Gen Ellis said it was "imperative" that the Pentagon instead accelerate production of the newest armoured personnel carrier, the Stryker, which weighs 19 tons and moves at high speed on eight rubber tyres.
But the Stryker has many influential critics who say it is too big to be flown easily on the military's C-130 transport aircraft, and too cumbersome to manoeuvre in narrow streets. Instead, they want the Pentagon to turn back the clock and re-deploy thousands of Vietnam-era M-113 "Gavin" armoured personnel carriers, which are still used by support and engineering units, and are held in huge numbers by reserve units.
Gary Motsek, the deputy director of support operations for US army materiel command, said: "I have roughly 700 113-series vehicles sitting pre-positioned in Kuwait, though some are in need of repairs. I have them available right now, if they want them."
You missed a real winner: Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the Shinseki!
[actually, the Israeli TomCar.] 
The Tomcar All Terrain Vehicle is used by the IDF and Israeli Border Police and a number of development programs, in various manned and unmanned applications. The Tomcar is a small, lightweight (ca. 600 kg) vehicle, designed to carry two people and their gear to patrol at low speeds over rough terrain for prolonged periods of time with minimum downtime and maximum safety and report to their base or act in an event.
The IDF is currently evaluating a protected version of the Tomcar, weighing 1,230 kg. The vehicle is equipped with a fully protected cabin, fitted with bullet proof windscreen and side windows and an escape/firing hatch on the roof. The vehicle can be used to transport troops, supplies and equipment in urban terrain, where speed and agility that can protect it in open terrain cannot be used. Elbit Systems demonstrated another configuration of the Mil Tomcar, equipped with an elevated optronic sensor, operating console and firing position.
IAI/Lahav is using the tomcar as the basis for its autonomous sentry, in the Guardium Unmanned Security Vehicle (USV) system. The IDF is also evaluating the Flyer Defense ITV, a 1,750 kg high mobility vehicle, designed to carry five soldiers and a total 1,350 kg. of payload. The vehicle is built from a lightweight tubular space frame and is equipped with an independent suspension that ensures very high mobility.
Correct, and it has always been so. Armored Hummers are an improvisation that helps but cannot resolve the problem. Just as Hitler's horribly over armored tanks failed to resolve the problem of allied numbers.
The fact is that weapons take time to develop and development is usually a reaction to the last threat; or a reaction to the time and financial limitations of the time. [Note, 'immediate' is seldom a good basis for 'perfect']
"The Humvee has been a good and useful replacement for the 3/4 and 5/4 ton truck. But now we ought to have something a little smaller, better armored, and amphibious as a direct replacement for the old Jeep without that earlier vehicle's shortcomings." [Archy]
Right again, but in the mean time, I sort of liked the old jeeps and I'm witholding my decision on Stryker...it shares a lot of the problems assigned to up-armored Hummers.
113s would be better in the close fighting, remember that their purpose was to get infantry into the fight, not to assault a hard target. They are slower in deploying, and still not immune to RPG or reasonably large improvised munitions.
They even mounted howitzers on those puppies, some things just don't change.
Fort's first team-trained UAV unit heads to Iraq
The first unmanned aerial vehicle platoon trained as a team at the Intelligence Center prepared this morning to depart for Iraq, where it will provide airborne surveillance for the 1st Infantry Division.
This unit is deploying with the Shadow UAV, which appears to be a passive surveillance vehicle. I'm guessing they could use it to try to spot bad guys planting IEDs.
Perfect. Now outfit that sucker with 5 hellfires and make it the Witness to the Crime, the Judge, the Jury, the Executioner, and the Witness to the Execution.
The only way for the crew to be safe from roadside bombs, is to not be there. Which is why perhaps we should be putting more development effort into remotely operated vehicles, with remotely operated guns.
Let the good guys sit back at base, playing "Halo 2" for real on the streets of Fallujah
Well, now you've done it (again).
Just when I was happy, you show me a hotrod Gratzl.
Wasn't the TomCar what Urkel used to drive, or is that just the way yours truly sees everything?
"Oh Santa"....!............
But very seriously...I deeply hope that we can get more appropriate hardware fielded soon. Hardening jeeps just doesn't seem the way.
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