Replies

Okay... you are correct... I did not give Howard the credit he was due for realizing Cemetary Ridge was good ground. So, yes... Howard began to fortify the line on Cemetary Ridge before Hancock's arrival... but the key point I'm making is this occured because Ewell and Hill stopped the pursuit...something that Jackson would not have done.

Plus..there is the added bonus of the fear "Jackson is upon us..." would have played on the 11th Corp, but that's another story.

I can't believe that I confused the Round Tops with Culp Hill...Please forgive the oversight. I haven't been to Gettysburg so sometimes I get confused in the topography. That will change this summer when I go and see the battle re-enactments.

I think the conversation has changed. I thought we were doing a "what if Jackson had been at Gettysburg" kind of thing (which I like doing). I know Jackson wasn't there. I know who had the II and III Corps and the effects those generals had on the old II Corp.

What I'm saying is if Jackson had been there... Howard and Hancock would have never had a chance to set up a defensive line on Cemetary Ridge because Jackson would not have stopped the pursuit as easily as Hill and Ewell did.

The Battle would have moved to the Pipe Creek Line. Whether there would have been fighting there or not, we will never know.

I will debate that was Lee was blind due to lack of Calvary, Lee blinded himself because he insisted on Stuart and not used the men Stuart had left behind. Stuart was obeying orders by riding around the Union Army.

The 6th Corp was delayed because of Stuart. Meade was very well aware the JEB Stuart was between Washington and his Army...

I haven't read Gingrich's book... But don't bother reading Stonewall at Gettysburg. It was terrible.

Its very hard to have a debate about the Civil War and remain "focused like a laser", to many personalities, to many variations, to many points of view for that to hold for long.

Here's something to consider. Jackson's performance during the Seven Day's battles was....lackadaisical at best. Even Lee questioned his taking a nap rather than moving his troops.

If you play "what if" you have to at least give a passing acknowledgement that he might have been lethargic, based on previous performance.

I'll also point out that there is more than one historian that has suggested "Stonewall" wasn't a compliment by the dying officer who uttered it, it was a curse.

No denying the 11th Corps was poorly led. I don't think it required Jackson to once again do what it always did, collapse and run away. Its record in the war is undeniably bad, and because of that its very easy to overlook the occasional "good thing" it did, as the fortifiying of Cemetary Ridge shows on July 1st.

Whatever the reason, we both agree Lee was "blind" I think thats the salient point of this. Without good information, you can't make decisions with any degree of certainty. You are correct as to why the 6th Corps was delayed, we agree on that completely. However, remember Lee didn't know any of this on July 1st, nor July 2nd until very late in the day when he finally got Stewart's report. At that point it didn't matter any longer due to the results of the fighting on July 2nd.

Where we disagree is your assertion that Stewarts "ride around the Union Army" was what he was ordered to do. Lee's orders gave Stewart some discretion, to be sure...but it was very clear that once the Union army crossed the river Stewart was to place himself on Ewells flank (feeling his right is what was in the written orders) and screen the Army of Virginia. Stewart failed to follow his orders, and I agree with Longstreets view he should have been court martialed for it.

However, (grin), its hard to argue Lee's point that crushing Stewart wouldn't serve the Army well...and Stewarts performance until he was finally killed reflects Lee was correct.

I can tell you would enjoy reading Gingrich's novel about Gettysburg. I you liked the Shaara trilogy, you will enjoy this one as well. btw, the sequel to the Gingrich novel comes out this fall, I believe in September. I'm definately going to purchase it. You might be interested to know that in the Gingrich novel, an attack is made on Cemetary Ridge, with pretty much the results I've posted would have occured. Further, the final battle in this novel is on the Pipe Creek Line. Whats different is the CSA held the position!

You really ought to check this book out.