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To: sarcasm
Ah yes, You do realize that most of those "trade" workers make anywhere from $15-50 an hour??????? As an ex-construction worker, I find your nose in the air, elites posturing hysterically funny. I made a LOT more money working in "trade" jobs then I do in my nice clean office job. A lot less when you consider the OT. Guess what, life it tough. Quit whining and get a job.
3 posted on 04/16/2004 1:55:45 AM PDT by MNJohnnie (Vote Bush 2004-We have the solutions, Kerry Democrats? Nothing but slogans)
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To: MNJohnnie
I made a LOT more money working in "trade" jobs then I do in my nice clean office job.

Why did you leave?

4 posted on 04/16/2004 2:04:14 AM PDT by sarcasm (Tancredo 2004)
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To: MNJohnnie
Ah yes, You do realize that most of those "trade" workers make anywhere from $15-50 an hour??????? As an ex-construction worker, I find your nose in the air, elites posturing hysterically funny. I made a LOT more money working in "trade" jobs then I do in my nice clean office job. A lot less when you consider the OT. Guess what, life it tough. Quit whining and get a job.

I think the point is that (a) America will need engineers, both hard engineers like Aerospace and EE, and "soft" engineers like IT workers, (b) College students will not go into debt, and Parents of college students will not spend a good portion of their retirement dollars on their kids education, if they cannot get a job in the discipline they study, and (c) given the status queue, American will experience one heck of a reverse "brain drain". Many of the wonderful high-tech tools that have transformed the trades in the last 30 years won't be there tomorrow, or at least the innovation that created them will be gone from America.

I'm not too lazy to "get a job". I worked a dozen "trade" jobs while putting myself through college in the 80s. Then I gave blood and sweat in the Navy for four years after I got my degree, picking up experience (while serving my Country) for my first civilian job. Then I worked 80 hours a week at nearly minimum wage for 3-4 years, until I became useful enough to merit a higher salary, and some years later, higher billing rate as a contractor.

In the 20 years I've been in the IT business, I have "reinvented" my career at least 5 times. Each time, it cost me money for training, and a pay cut for experience. Now, isn't it a bit arrogant for "tradesmen" to be telling folks like me to "get a job", as if we were lazy, and sitting on our butts on welfare. There are people I know in their 40's, one Naval Academy and Marine Corps vet. in particular, whose lives have been turned upside down. They've trying to "reinvent" themselves multiple times, to meet the changes of industry, but they couldnt' do it quick enough to keep their house, keep their kids in a good school, and save any of their retirement investments.

They've worked hard and lost everything, because, in my opinion, the U.S. government has been wholesaling IT and Engineering careers out the "off-shoring" door for 30 years. "Free traders" who love outsourcing miss the fact that it has not occurred in a vacume. These countries, including India, China, the Philippines, Ireland, and etc. haven't developed their High Tech industrial base from "whole cloth". Their engineers are American trained, at subsidized rates at U.S. Universities. The managers gained experence as Foreign Nationals working in the U.S.. Their designers have lifted innovation developed with American capital and yes, even American minds, and "cloned" the technology for their own country's benefit. The U.S. government has for years "sold" American jobs to the lowest bidder, i.e. by encouraging H1B, L1, and NAFTA VISA's by the millions.

If you see nothing wrong with this situation, i.e. that it's just the "nerds" getting their comeuptance, so be it. I suppose I cannot dissuade you from your religious "class-warfare" beliefs. I think the cost to the USA will be devestating over the next 20 years. There will be FEWER BUYERS for the trademen's products in the US, which translates into lower pay and fewer tradesmen opportunities.

Five years ago, my (now) 16 year old son was intent in following in my foot steps. Because of my background, he was half-way trained toward being a professional WEB designer and programmer. He was doing amazing things for an 11 year old. Today, I can't keep him mind focused on "college prep" high school studies, because he sees college as a huge expense with zero pay off. He's seen my own career problems (and I've been fairly successful), and some of his friends college and technically educated parents go broke. Why would he want to study hard in High School? Why study a foreign language, or higher math? For what?

His plan now is to become an auto mechanic, and eventually own his own shop. If he's happy doing this, it's fine by me. But what if he changes his mind in 5-10 years?

From looking at my kids peers, this pattern appears to be occuring nationwide. Kids who used to "automatically" head towards college now want nothing to do with it. Their goals are lower, because they just don't see the payoff of higher education. They've seen their own parents lose careers, houses, fortunes, and dissolve marriages, because this Country has sold their careers to the lowest bidder. Why should they join in?

SFS

5 posted on 04/16/2004 4:35:38 AM PDT by Steel and Fire and Stone (SFS)
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To: MNJohnnie
people with degrees have to beg for those jobs, and they only open when the union says they are open

I know, I have been trying
13 posted on 04/16/2004 7:51:21 PM PDT by RaceBannon (VOTE DEMOCRAT AND LEARN ARABIC FREE!!)
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To: MNJohnnie
Ah yes, You do realize that most of those "trade" workers make anywhere from $15-50 an hour???????

In a closed economic system you have producers and consumers. The producers create products and sell them at a profit to the consumers. The wealth generated in that transaction (compensation in excess of cost to produce the product) is available as disposable income to purchase the products of other producers. There is a synergy of wealth that flows between producers and consumers in an economy characterized by division of labor into specialties.

The trades are producers of residential and commercial buildings. The developer takes out a construction loan to buy materials and pay for the labor. The bank allows the loan because the value produced is likely to be paid back. That has been the value proposition for the trades. The customers who purchased those buildings are mostly white collar business people. Those customers are the new unemployed class. The people of southeast asia can perform that work at a lower labor cost. The white collar workers are in asia. The demand for new buildings is in asia...not here in the U.S.

When building vacancy rates go up, there is no demand to build new buildings. That means reduced work for the trades. What work is available will be handed off to cheap illegal alien laborers. Many construction sites around Houston were deserted this week as rumors of Border Patrol raids circulated. Clearly, the bulk of the construction labor in those areas is already being done by illegals.

71 posted on 04/16/2004 11:44:22 PM PDT by Myrddin
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