Kensington Runestone Looking More Like a Fake

The Minneapolis/St Paul Star Tribune ^ | April 8, 2004 | Peg Meier

[quidnunc]

Scholars who believe the Kensington Runestone is a 19th-century prank — and not concrete evidence that Norsemen beat Columbus to America by 100-plus years — say they have found the smoking gun to prove it.

The latest in the century-old Minnesota controversy came in documents written in 1885 by an 18-year-old Swedish tailor named Edward Larsson. He sometimes wrote in runes — an ancient Scandinavian language that differs from the English alphabet. But Larsson's runes were not the usual runes used over the centuries.

The scholars contend that parts of his documents seem to be written in a secret runic alphabet used by tradesmen in Sweden in the late 1800s, rather like codes that tramps have used over time to leave secret messages for each other.

Swedish linguists happened upon Larsson's documents recently and found that his writing corresponds to pieces of the Kensington Runestone inscription. They say that the journeymen's code did not exist in medieval times, when the Kensington Runestone is purported to have been carved.

"My opinion is this once again nails down the case against the Kensington Runestone," said Michael Michlovic, professor of anthropology and chairman of the Department of Anthropology and Earth Science at Minnesota State University Moorhead.

"This new evidence is really devastating. It comes unexpectedly and from a collection of old letters that have nothing to do with the Kensington Runestone."

-snip-

[rogueleader]

I beg to differ with these European experts.

From the excerpt: Swedish linguists happened upon Larsson's documents recently and found that his writing corresponds to pieces of the Kensington Runestone inscription.

Funny. In a part of the article not excerpted, it says it was a Finnish linguist.

The problem with this "smoking gun" is that it is not a smoking gun. It is quite conceivable that an earlier version of this runic trade language existed in Scandinavia in the 1300s.

Would the experts be so bold as to claim that this runic language sprang out of nowhere sometime after the 1800s? That it had no prececessors? Only a fool would claim as much.

Would the experts be so bold as to claim that there could have been a secret Scandinavian runic language in the 1300s that is today unknown to have existed? Only a fool would claim as much.

From the full article: To Williams, it is inconceivable that the runes on the rock in Minnesota could have survived in Sweden for 500 years with little variation; languages live and change over time

That is attacking a straw man. According to the first quotation in this post, only "parts" of the Kensington Runestone correspond to the secret Swedish runic trade language of the 1800s.

Finally, we have the compelling circumstantial evidence. Flies from the Norse Greenland settlement were radiologically dated as late as 1350, but no later. Today archaeologists believe the Greenland settlement collapsed roughly about that time. No one knows where the Greenland settlers went, if they went anywhere. Speculation places some of them in Iceland.

Yet, the Kensington runestone is clearly marked with the date 1362 AD. It is very conceivable that some or all of the Greenland settlers sailed into Hudson Bay, then to James Bay, then south through the Red River of the North, and finally took a turn on one of the tributaries to near what is today Alexandria, Minnesota. At some point they met the fate at the hands of the "Skraelings" as recounted on the Runestone.

A 19th century forger would have had no reason to date the rock as 1362. The fate of the Greenland settlement was only learned in detail in the 20th century.

Apply Ockham's Razor. What is the simplest explanation for the Kensington Runestone? That it is genuine.

The only way to prove that, though, will be to find a second runestone left by the same settlers. The Kensington Runestone was found in the roots of a tree by a farmer excavating a portion of his land. The likelihood of finding a second runestone is not good, but if one exists it should eventually be found.

My suspicion is that for reasons of multicultural correctness, any achievement by the Norse must be denigrated. The Norse were clearly white and hence evil to the core. Any manner of bashing the Norse is now acceptable. And thus are academic careers made.

[Fedora]

LOL! Uff-da! :)

[Fedora]

Cool post! I'm going to copy that for reference! Some of those runes look rather Tolkien-esque, I notice--I can see where he got them from :)

[Fedora]

ROFL! Except they didn't talk about the weather for 5-10 minutes first--that's required, you know, dere, ey? :)

[Charles Henrickson]

While I remain sceptical regarding the stone, it would not be surprising to find viking artifacts in Minnesota. Getting to Duluth would have been nothing for these cats.

Yes, but apply Occam's Razor here. Wouldn't it be more likely to find Viking artifacts closer to the Eastern Seaboard of North America, like in Massachusetts or Maine or Newfoundland? Why would they skip over those areas and go all the way inland to Minnesota? In contrast, when Swedes began emigrating in the mid-to-late 19th century, it made sense to go to Minnesota and Illinois, e.g., because that's where the frontier was.

Take my own family, for instance, when my paternal grandfather (Karl Henriksson) came over in 1902, he settled in Chicago (which in the early 1900s was the second largest Swedish city in the world). But on my maternal grandmother's side (her maiden name was Grace Rambo), her ancestor Per Gunnarsson Rambo was one of the first permanent Swedish settlers in North America, coming over in the 1600s. And where did these seagoers found their "New Sweden"? Not in Minnesota, but along the Delaware River, on the Eastern Seaboard.

[Fedora]

Excellent points you make.

[Charles Henrickson]

Some of those runes look rather Tolkien-esque, I notice--I can see where he got them from :)

You put a smiley on that, but your comment could very well be the case. Tolkien was a linguist and expert in old northern European literature. He was very familiar with Icelandic sagas, for example.

[Fedora]

True, it'd be simplest to base on the Eastern seaboard; but once you get to the Eastern seaboard, why not continue up the St. Lawrence into the Great Lakes? We know that's what the later European colonists did when they arrived in Canada and New England. It'd make logistical sense if once the Vikings got to the Eastern seaboard they set up a series of trading posts to facilitate going up and down the coast and farther inland, like they were doing during the same time period with rivers in Russia to facilitate trade with the Byzantine and Arab Empires.

[rogueleader]

I wrote: Would the experts be so bold as to claim that this runic language sprang out of nowhere sometime after the 1800s? That it had no prececessors? Only a fool would claim as much.

That should be "after the 1300s."

Would the experts be so bold as to claim that there could have been a secret Scandinavian runic language in the 1300s that is today unknown to have existed? Only a fool would claim as much.

That should be "that there could not have been.

[Spruce]

The point of Duluth/Superior is as far west as the Vikings could have possibly landed. Totally possible.
But. That area is Ojibwe.
The first Ojibwe records of white men is frencmen from the south. Not Vikings from the water.
No way anyone made it past them. Which raises my main doubt in the K. Stone. There is NO WAY the Ojibwe would have allowed it to happen. No way.

[Fedora]

You put a smiley on that, but your comment could very well be the case. Tolkien was a linguist and expert in old northern European literature. He was very familiar with Icelandic sagas, for example.

Oh, definitely! Professor Tolkien was a linguist second to none, IMO--he had an absolutely amazing gift for language, and I have the utmost respect for his scholarship. I'm very sure he studied authentic runes in order to design his runes--in fact, he says in Appendix E of Return of the King that the reason he has two alphabets there is because one was designed for writing with brush/pen whereas the other was "mostly used only for scratched or incised inscriptions. . .The Cirth. . .were long used only for inscribing names and brief memorials upon wood and stone. To that origin they owe their angular shapes, very similar to the runes of our times, though they differed from these in details and were wholly different in arrangement." What I'm curious about is which runic alphabets he drew from--there are some characters in what was posted that I can see he was definitely drawing from, but I suspect he probably drew from more than one alphabet as well as inventing his own characters (all his characters are permutations of a few basic strokes). I'm looking forward to comparing the runes posted with his to see what he's drawing from there.

[Dark Knight]

This was not the only isolated piece of evidence that Vikings were inland. There were mooring stones that were consistant with Viking settlements and some of the more interesting stuff was found as far south as Oklahoma. It it were some stone, found entangled in a trees roots, that some farmer who took down the tree used as a door stop for years.

But as you can see, the runes described mooring stone locations that were real. The linguistics is not the only thing to consider, so is the content.
http://www.runestonemuseum.org/runestone_story.htm
Do we believe that a hoax from 1898 would know the difference in mooring hole shape? Remember, the shape is uncommon and more difficult to make in STONE!

DK

[Republican Party Reptile]

From "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" ....

INT. VIKING HOUSE - DAY
CLOSE ON a cute little bunny rabbit. As a body sweeps past, scooping it
up, we pull back and reveal that we're in a Viking cottage, circa late 9th
century.
SUBTITLE: Sjornjost, 880
Anya (who, at this point in her life, is called. "Aud") breezes through
the room happily. She's dressed in full Viking regalia; leather, fur,
braids.
The cottage itself is very quaint: wood walls, dining table, chairs,
kitchen-type area, large bed covered in furs.
Twelve bunnies bound around on the floor. Anya nuzzles the one she's
holding and sets it down with the others. She goes about her business,
cheerfully preparing the table.
Through the front door bursts OLAF (the human version.) He carries a large
battle axe which, like the furs he wears, is stained with a black,
blood-like substance.
[NOTE: for the duration of this scene, the actors will be speaking
Swedish. Their dialogue will be dubbed over (badly) by the actors in
English.]
OLAF
(Swedish)
Aud! Rara, vackra Aud!
Jag är så hungrig så jag
skulle kunna ata upp ett
litet barn! OLAF
(English)
Aud! Sweet, beautiful Aud!
I am so hungry I could eat
a small child!

Anya runs to him, helps him set down his axe.
ANYA
(Swedish)
Olaf! Är du skadad? Du
luktar blod och musk. ANYA
(English)
Olaf! Are you injured?
You smell of blood and musk.

He laughs heartily.
OLAF
(Swedish)
Frukta inte! Det krävz mer
än en skara mindre troll
för att få ner stora Olaf!OLAF
(English)
Fear not! It takes more
than a band of minor trolls
to bring down the mighty Olaf!
ANYA
(Swedish)
Troll!ANYA
(English)
Trolls!
OLAF
(Swedish)
Åh! De är verkligen
vrickade kreatur. Blotta
tanken får mej att gå på
knäna.OLAF
(English)
Oh! They are wretched
creatures indeed. The mere
thought of them makes me
bend at the knee and flex.
ANYA
(Swedish)
Sitt ner kära du. Låt mej
passa upp dej lite.
ANYA
(English)
Sweetheart, please, sit
down. Allow me to tend to
you.

He waves her off, but sits anyway.
OLAF
(Swedish)
Jag år ok. Verkligen.
Fast jag tar gårna lite
mjöd.OLAF
(English)
I am fine. Really. I
could go for some mead,
though.
ANYA
(Swedish)
Ska bli. ANYA
(English)
Certainly.

She hurries to the kitchen and pours mead from a jug into an oversized
mug. Olaf looks around at the rabbits on the floor.
OLAF
(Swedish)
Fantiserar jag, eller är
det riktigt att vi har
otroligt många fler kaniner
här inne idag?OLAF
(English)
Is it my imagination, or do
we have substantially more
rabbits in the house today?
ANYA
(Swedish)
Åh, de förökar sig så
snabbt att det är -- ANYA
(English)
Oh, they breed so quickly
that it's --

Olaf leaps to his feet.
OLAF
(Swedish)
Allt detta snack om
förökning får mej att vilja
själv! OLAF
(English)
All this talk of breeding
makes me want to breed!

Anya hurries to him, hands him his mug.
ANYA
(Swedish)
Älskling, självklart. Men
här -- drick din mjod först.ANYA
(English)
Honey, of course. But
here -- drink your mead
first.
OLAF
(Swedish)
Åh, ja. Mjod. OLAF
(English)
Ah, yes. Mead.

He sits back down. She checks him over.
ANYA
(Swedish)



ANYA
(English)
Did the trolls hurt you?
Their mossy skin does not
reflect their churlish
heart.
OLAF
(Swedish; laughing)
Jag mår toppen -- Snälla,
sluta gräma dej över mej.
Beråtta om din dag.OLAF
(English; laughing)
I am fine -- Please, stop
fretting over me. Tell me
of your day.
ANYA
(Swedish; bright)
Å! Jag tvättade alla dina
tunikor från slaget vid
Asgoth, Jag smidde två
hammare och ett litet svärd
till dej och så lärde jag
mej ett nytt recept på ox-
goblin som jag tror du
kommer att gilla. ANYA
(English; bright)
Okay! Well, I was able to
get all your tunics from
the battle of Asgoth
cleaned, I smelted you two
hammers and a small sword
and I learned a new recipe
for ox-goblin that I think
you'll enjoy.

At this point, the live-Olaf happily says several words, but on the
dubtrack we hear only:
OLAF
(Swedish)
Mmmmmm...OLAF
(English)
Mmmmmm...
ANYA
(Swedish)
Och den snabba tillväxten
av dina kaniner --
ålskling, sitt ner -- har
gett mej en idé. Jag
skulle kunna ge Överskottet
till folket I stan, inte I
utbyte mot gods eller
service, men för gott rykte
och känslan av utförande
som kommer från
osjälviskheten att ge till
andra. ANYA
(English)
And the rapid reproductive
rate of our rabbits --
honey, sit down -- has
given me an idea. I can
give the excess out to the
townspeople, exchanging
them not for goods or
services but for goodwill
and the sense of
accomplishment that stems
from selflessly giving of
yourself to others.

Live-Olaf laughs heartily. The laughing on the dubtrack stops long. before
he is through.
OLAF
(Swedish)
Kära Aud! Din logik år
vansinnig och impulsiv, som
ett trolls. Inte så
konstigt att barägarna
pratar om dej. OLAF
(English)
Sweet Aud! Your logic is
insane and happenstance,
like that of a troll. It
is no wonder the bar
matrons talk of you.

Anya's face falls.
ANYA
(Swedish)
Du har varit på krogen...ANYA
(English)
You've been to the bar...
OLAF
(Swedish)

OLAF
(English)
Oh, Aud. Forget it and
please me now.
ANYA
(Swedish)
Jag tycker inte om att du
går dit.ANYA
(English)
I do not like you going
there.
OLAF
(Swedish)
Det är inte mitt fel att de
inte år vänliga mot dej.
Du har alltid varit
aggressiv för att du inte
går ihop med folk. Du
säger vad du tycker och är
mest besvärande.
(he smiles)
Det är en av egenskaperna
jag älskar mest hos dej.OLAF
(English)
It is not my fault they
don't take kindly to you.
You've always been most
aggressive in your not-
fitting-in with people.
You speak your mind, and
are annoying.
(he smiles)
It's one of the things I
love most about you.
ANYA
(Swedish)
Var Rannveig there?ANYA
(English)
Was Rennveig there?
OLAF
(Swedish)
Ahh! Jag har sagt
tusentals gånger att jag
inte har något intresse av
denna Rannveig. Hennes
höfter är stora och
kraftiga, som en Baltisk
kvinna. OLAF
(English)
Bah! I've told you a
thousand times: I have no
interest in this Rannveig.
Her hips are large and load-
bearing, like a Baltic
woman.

He pulls her over to him happily.
OLAF
(Swedish)
Du är mycket mer min smak.
Dina höfter är små, som en
Baltisk kvinna från en
något mer ofruktbar region. OLAF
(English)
You are much more to my
liking. Your hips are
small, like a Baltic woman
from a slightly more arid
region.


Act Two
EXT. VIKING VILLAGE - DAY
VIKING CHAOS. An ANGRY MOB of people runs all over the place, screaming,
in and out of frame. We're back in the 9th century, only now we're on the
streets of the village itself. A fev thatchwork Viking houses line the
streets.
We're able to make out some of the screams (though the villagers are
speaking Swedish and their screams are dubbed):
VILLAGER #1
(Swedish)
Ett troooooooolllll!VILLAGER #1
(English)
Troooooooolllll!
VILLAGER #2
(Swedish)
Det är det största troll
jag någonsin sett!VILLAGER #2
(English)
It's the largest troll I've
ever seen!
VILLAGER #3
(Swedish)
Spring! Göm era barn och
era pärlarbeten! VILLAGER #3
(English)
Run! Hide your babies and
your beadwork!

Into the frame bursts Olaf. He's been transformed into the troll we met in
"Triangle." He carries his giant HAMMER (also from "Triangle") He's
crazed, confused and angry. He's also badly dubbed.
OLAF
(Swedish)
ARRRRGGGH! ARRRRRRR!
STANNA! DET ÄR OLAF! JAR
ÄR OLAF! OLAF
(English)
ARRRRGGGH! ARRRRRRR!
STOP! IT IS OLAF! I AM
OLAF!

We single out TWO VIKINGS from the mob:
VIKING #1
(Swedish)
Trollet gör en Olaf
personifiering!VIKING #1
(English)
The troll is doing an Olaf
impersonation!
VIKING #2
(Swedish)
Slå honom med frukt och
variationer av kött! VIKING #2
(English)
Hit him with fruits and
various meats!

A few BRAVE VILLAGERS rush forward and pelt Olaf with fruits and various
meats.
OLAF
(Swedish)
AHHHHHRRRRHHHH! OLAF
(English)
AHHHHHRRRRHHHH!

[Fedora]

That's a good issue you raise, but what I wonder with respect to that is when the Ojibwe (Chippewa) first became entrenched where they were when the French arrived? Our records of them come from relatively late compared to the Vikings and don't tell us much about their prehistory, to my best recollection (was reading about this a couple months ago, though I may need to refresh my memory on specifics--just returned the book to the library today actually, per Murphy's Law--doh!). There was a lot of displacement going on during that period due to migrations caused by wars with the Iroquois.

[AnAmericanMother]

Aw, sheesh, THAT ain't Thor.

THIS is Thor.

[Fedora]

Typo correction to Post #15:

Blam, that Atlas of the Mysterious in North America site I mentioned a while back

I meant "book", not site--been on the Internet so long I'm starting to forget everything's not online, LOL!

[FreedomFarmer]

Slå honom med frukt och variationer av kött!

...and I was willing to tell you why Swedish chicken coups only have two doors, in stead of four...

[Fedora]

That's Thor with a haircut :) Actually, I just grabbed the first picture of Thor I could find and the one you picked is admittedly cooler than mine. I'm sure there's many better ones than the one I picked out there--let's see, here's another one I kinda like:

[NormsRevenge]

p>

Over they years , Big Ole, who used to stand near the Runestone Museum, was the victim of pranks, from firebombing to arrows and such..

[FreedomFarmer]

I like your 'Mjolnir' response. There seems to be far more followers of Asatru than commonly believed, especially Loki a Vanir.