FRESH CLUE SHOWS TURIN SHROUD MAY BE GENUINE BURIAL CLOTH OF CHRIST

The Mirror ^ | April 2, 2004 | David Edwards

[RS]

"Different scientists (Adler, Heller, Pellicori, etc.) working independently conducted immunological, fluorescence and spectrographic tests, as well as Rh and ABO typing of blood antigens that prove it beyond any doubt."

... and not a single one has done a DNA test yet ?

[Graymatter]

My argument against it being a hoax--- If it's an artistic recreation of a phenomenon, there ought to be some evidence of artistry, of artifice. Particularly in medieval times, there should be brush strokes, dye, saturation, anatomical impossibilities---something! The thing is too realistic, for that time or any time.

Reasonable people go with the simplest explanation, and right now, given the data we have, the simplest explanation is that it's the burial shroud of a real, really crucified man, scourged as men were scourged in Roman times, etc. Some of the details, eg the crown of thorns, suggest it was Jesus. Likelier than not, at this point.

The real sticking point for most people is not the carbon dating, which is questionable, but the notion that the relic is too good to be true.

[the OlLine Rebel]

DNA against what?

[NYer]

When they prepared the body, would they have cleaned the body at one of these two events, (either Nicodemus or the women)?

Actually, Matthew records ...

57

³⁴ When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea named Joseph, who was himself a disciple of Jesus.

58

He went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus; then Pilate ordered it to be handed over.

59

Taking the body, Joseph wrapped it (in) clean linen

60

and laid it in his new tomb that he had hewn in the rock. Then he rolled a huge stone across the entrance to the tomb and departed.

* * * * *

Mary Magdalene intended to return with the other women after the Sabath, to properly prepare the body but it was gone.

[Protagoras]

Until something uncontrovertable comes along, I will remain firmly on the side of those that say its the longest running hoax in history.

Just curious, what kind of proof would convince you that the shroud is not a hoax? Not that it's the burial cloth of Jesus, but that it's not a hoax?

I mean, questions remain like, who did this, when did they do this, what was their purpose? Was it a conspiracy? Why did it have to be a hoax? Why not a natural process of some kind from some body?

Like I said, just curious.

[Cacique]

b

[RS]

An x-ray is a frequency level of light, a type of energy. A negative is simply a reverse image, apples to oranges talking of energy types. Perhaps the person made a mistake (since it sort of looks like our typical x-ray image formats)."

You're correct of course, I find a lot of mixing of apples and oranges in the "explanations" of the shroud experts here - a lot of them begin to sound like the UFO nuts after a while

[RS]

"DNA against what?"

... against a human ?

Since He was not a clone of Mary, it would be interesting to see the attributes added by the masculine Holy Spirit.

The DNA of a physically "perfect" human would be quite interesting for comparison purposes, would it not ?

[netmilsmom]

One of the Supermarket rags has the Shroud on the cover this week. It says that some cleaning woman noticed a glow coming from the Shroud and during closer examination found the Lord's Prayer in Aramaic!

Just a little levity for the thread.
BTW, I'm a believer. I think that this cannot be proven to be the burial cloth of Jesus unless the Wayback Machine gets perfected. Until then, I go on faith. I don't think God will mind at all if it puts me in the mind of Him.

[shroudie]

I agree. Many do sound like UFO nuts after awhile. And I am accused of that often. There are five basic reason, I think, that many people have when it comes to considering that the Shroud is genuine.

1) History: It is hard to imagine that a relic of Jesus survived for nearly can 2000 years. Furthermore, we are conditioned by the lessons of history to believe that a relic with a footprint in medieval Europe must be fake.

2) Carbon 14: Tests conducted in 1988, on samples cut from the Shroud, suggest that the linen fibers of the cloth were produced between the middle of the 13th century and the end of the 14th. Our trust in such science is implicit, and rightly so.

3) Incredulity: We assume, dichotomously, if the Shroud is not fake then the images we see on the cloth must have been miraculously produced as a byproduct of a resurrection event. This overwhelms modern sensibilities. Sensational theories in polemic writings—theories such as dematerialization or radiation coming from the body of Jesus—only magnifies our incredulity.

4) Alternatives: We may be persuaded by alternate presentations: a) Walter McCrone attempted to show that it was a painting. b) Bishop Henri de Poitiers of Troyes conducted an inquest in the 14th century and discovered that an artist had confessed to painting the Shroud? c) Leonardo da Vinci created the Shroud's image (in his own image) despite the fact that he was born a century after its documented appearance in Lirey, France in 1356.

5) Convictions: Firm religious beliefs or our view of history persuades us that the Shroud cannot be real. Biblical literalism, which does not fully account for the Shroud, is an example. John Dominic Crossan's argument that Jesus was not buried and that his body likely left on the cross to be devoured by crows and dogs or thrown into a charnel pit is also an example.

There are reasons, as well, why some people accept its authenticity without qualification. That is too bad, also.

In the end we must make reasonable judgments based on the best science and history available. I doubt its authenticity will ever be proved. But there is enough here for me to be reasonably certain that it is a genuine burial cloth of a Roman-style crucifixion victim and to infer that the image is likely that of Jesus. I am more specific in the right margin of any of the tough question pages at http://shroudstory.com

Shroudie

[sneakers]

"The Shroud may actually be fake, but it certainly is not a "proven fake." As someone else pointed out on this thread, the Shroud cannot possibly be "proven" to be a fake until someone can figure out how the image got there. Even those scientists who insist that it was a forgery are at a loss to explain how someone in the 12th century could possibly have created something that human beings cannot even create today."

I haven't yet read all the posts so, possibly, someone else may have mentioned this, but I seem to remember that it is possible to create a three-dimensional picture from the picture of the image on the shroud?

[Aquinasfan]

Well, that's quite a stretch. I'd like to believe that, but isn't it possible, nay likely, that a given shroud from a given time period was used to bury someone other than Jesus?

Of course. But a crucifixion victim whose image wasn't painted on but was scorched into the cloth in proportion to the cloth's distance from the body's surface?

[ElkGroveDan]

I don't recall the half-life of U237/9 (whatever it is) specifically, but I thought it was around 1500 years. In any case, since I went to college I've wondered how this carbon-dating could figure anything *older* than that? W/the Shroud, I've always thought that if it's around 2000 years, how could this method ever possibly prove it to be so?

Well for starters carbon 14 dating has to do with ratios of carbon isotopes not uranium. That said, the 1500 year half life doesn't preclude measurements far longer than that. After 1500 years half is gone, after 3000 years 3/4 is gone etc. etc. I don't recall what the upper limit in age is for the carbon 14 process, but it is several factors longer than the half-life, I think 50,000 years is still reasonable with a large enough sample. The only real limiting factors would be the precision of the measuring instruments and the quantity of material being analyzed.

[Aquinasfan]

if a DNA sample could be gotten from the Shroud, and if a living decendant could be found to compare it to.....Maybe we could find out for sure?

The blood type on the

Shroud of Turin
Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano
Sudarium of Oviedo

is AB.

Type AB blood occurs in 2% of the population.

[Aquinasfan]

The notion that someone would develop a primitive form of technology 700 or 800 years earlier than this -- without leaving any other evidence of it for this period of time -- seems so highly improbable that I would consider it an "article of faith" that can't possibly be substantiated.

Exactly. The Shroud's authenticity is highly probable, given the scientific evidence. If one rejects miracles a priori, then no amount of evidence, scientific or otherwise, will suffice.

[Hammerhead]

sorry bud,

the Resurrection I can believe. the majical image, no. its akin to idol worship. You must be a Catholic.

[Aquinasfan]

"As far as anyone knows..." Ah, but there's the rub.

The image indicates that the "man of the cloth" was buried with coins on his eyes. The coins are Roman "leptons," struck, coincidentally, during the reign of Pontius Pilate.

[Netizen]

I guess you mean Joseph of Arimethea. ;-)

John 19
39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.

I suppose Joseph of Arimethea may have assisted Nicodemus. Verse 40 does say they and verse 39 does say Nicodemus. ;)

[RS]

"The blood type on the

Shroud of Turin"

In your link it does not say that this researcher actually did any blood testing ( Botanist Avinoam Danin ) - do you have any link to someone who actually did this ?

[Netizen]

So much for the clean linen. It looks like after Joseph of Arimathea wrapped the body in the clean linen that later that night Nicodemus and someone (Joseph of Arimathea?) re-wrapped the body, and this time in the same, but dirty linen.

John 19
39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.

Anointing?