Elsie, it's difficult to debate someone who employs two sets of rules. You question me regarding my statement 'The crowd in Jerusalem that demanded Christ's crucifixion did not in any way represent the Jews of the city of Jerusalem and its environs. They were a relatively small crowd.' [You say, 'How do you know?'] And then, in the next breath, you ask 'Why were there so many people in town?' referring to the same crowd. I will respond in kind: How do you know how many people there were?
Mark 14:53 reads, 'They took Jesus to the high priest, and all the chief priests, elders and teachers of the law came together.'
This assemblage took place immediately after Jesus' arrest in the Garden of Gethsemane. Is it not quite amazing that all of the religious leaders (high priests, scribes, leaders of the Pharisees) are already assembled? And that a crowd had gathered in what appears to be a matter of minutes? Christ's arrest and speedy trial was not simply a whim motivated by opportunity, but was, instead, a pre-planned and perfectly executed plot.
And the crowd? Do you truly believe that it represented the Jewish people? Or is it much more logical that it was a small group of pawns whose actions were orchestrated by the Sanhedrin so as to pressure Pilate into killing the One who threatened their power?
Only five days before, Christ had entered Jerusalem triumphantly, greeted by cheering throngs of Jews who loved Him. Those cheering throngs still loved Him, but were hiding in the shadows, fearing for their lives, because the power of the Sanhedrin (and their orchestrated crowd) ruled the day.
You responded to my observation that Veronica offered Him water with: in the 19th chapter of MARK?.
Are you the author of the statement, 'By their sarcasm ye shall know them'? (in reference to Christians). Are you familiar with James 3's description of the negative power of the tongue?
I spent a few paragraphs last night attempting to refute some of your arguments and I don't believe I once reverted to sarcasm in doing so. Do you believe that particular hostile weapon has any place in Christian debate?
Let's set aside the sarcasm and let's assume that we are both aware that there is no 19th chapter of Mark.
The subject of this thread is whether 'The Passion' incites anti-Semitism. In 'The Passion' Veronica does indeed offer Christ water on the Via Dolorosa. Veronica was a Jew. Veronica was showing compassion to 'her Lord' [as she referred to Him in the movie].
No, her actions are not recorded in scripture. But do you not believe that there were some occurrences during that fateful day that were not transcribed in the gospels? The story of Veronica is common and has been retold and celebrated throughout the ages.
Veronica's veil (with which she wiped his blood-stained face, as so beautifully depicted in 'The Passion') has been seen and venerated by many people. Some believe she kept the veil and discovered that it possessed curative properties. It is also believed, by many, that Roman Emperor Tiberius was offered the veil to cure an illness, and it was subsequently left in the possession of Pope Clement, and then his successors.
In the fourth century, many church documents referred to the existence of the veil, and in 1300 it was publicly displayed in Rome. It has been described as being made of extremely thin fabric with an image of a face on both sides – eyes wide open, terrible suffering apparent, many smears of blood. Slightly similar to descriptions of the Shroud of Turin, whose imprints would have been made shortly thereafter.
In the early 1600s Pope Paul V demolished the chapel in which the veil was kept when he rebuilt St. Peter's Basilica. Some believe the veil was stolen at that time. But today, next to the main altar in St. Peter's Basilica, there is a statue of Veronica whose inscription in Latin states that the veil is preserved within. Whether it is or not, we do not know.
So, yes, 'The Passion' portrayed Veronica (and her deeply compassionate wiping of Jesus' bloody face with her veil – as well as His deeply appreciative grasping of her kind hand). Scripture does not mention her action. But much word-of-mouth about her interaction with Christ on that day, as well as countless witnesses to the veil's existence, strongly suggest that the portrayal was as accurate as we can determine.
But no, it is not described in the nonesixtent 19th chaper of the book of Mark. </ your sarcasm >
You responded to my observation 'To extrapolate the politically-motivated hatred exhibited by these high priests and hypocrites and lay blame for the death of Christ on an entire people (when the allegiance to Him of so many of those very people was the reason for the Sanhedrin's fear) is ludicrous' by saying: 'Blame Moses - HE certainly lumped them all together. Better yet, blame GOD! HE sure lumped them together.'
What exactly is your point here? Moses led the Jews out of Egypt, delivered them the Ten Commandments, wandered with them for forty years in the wilderness, and prepared them to enter the land of Canaan. And, because he referred to them as a people (which of course he would, since he was chosen by God to free 'His chosen people'), you are leaping to the conclusion that referring to Jews, as a people, in any argument [such as being the murderers of Christ] is therefore legitimate? If that is your reasoning, it represents an immeasurable, borderline irrational, leap of logic. Hitler would have loved that particular leap. Do you blame all Iraqis for the murder and mutilation of the four American contractors in Falluja last week?
Not expecting a response from you. One apparently wasn’t forthcoming this time until Steve and Charlie coaxed it out of you. (Thanks for last time, fellows. But this time it's probably better to just let it lie.) You and I appear to be of two entirely different mindsets, Elise. And we embrace two entirely different definitions of debate/dialogue.
~ joanie
And, in a broader view, 'Does the BIBLE "incite anti-Semitism"?
And, in a narrower veiw, "Does ELSIE, by posting Scripture, incite anti-Semitism?"
I'm sorry my Veronica remark has riled yer feathers so badly, but many folks who could be lurking here do NOT know about her and would have assumed, wrongly, that she is mentioned in Scripture.
If we are going to espouse our differing points of veiw, it is good for the crowd to see from where we are coming.
NIV Matthew 10:14
14. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.NIV Mark 6:11
11. And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them."NIV Luke 9:5
5. If people do not welcome you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave their town, as a testimony against them."NIV Luke 10:10-11
10. But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say,
11. `Even the dust of your town that sticks to our feet we wipe off against you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God is near.'NIV Acts 13:51
51. So they shook the dust from their feet in protest against them and went to Iconium.