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Atheist Calls Pledge Unconstitutional
Yahoo! News ^ | 3/24/04 | Gina Holland - AP

Posted on 03/24/2004 10:33:48 AM PST by NormsRevenge

WASHINGTON -

A California atheist told the Supreme Court Wednesday that the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance are unconstitutional and offensive to people who don't believe there is a God.

Michael Newdow, who challenged the Pledge of Allegiance on behalf of his daughter, said the court has no choice but to keep it out of public schools.

"It's indoctrinating children," he said. "The government is supposed to stay out of religion."

But some justices said they were not sure if the words were intended to unite the country, or express religion.

Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist noted that Congress unanimously added the words "under God" in the pledge in 1954.

"That doesn't sound divisive," he said.

"That's only because no atheists can be elected to office," Newdow responded.

Some in the audience erupted in applause in the courtroom, and were threatened with expulsion by the chief justice.

The subject of Newdow's right to bring the lawsuit had dominated the beginning of arguments in the landmark case to decide if the classroom salute in public schools violates the Constitution's ban on government-established religion.

Terence Cassidy, attorney for a suburban Sacramento school district where Newdow's 9-year-old daughter attends classes, noted to justices that the girl's mother opposed the lawsuit. "The ultimate decision-making authority is with the mother," he said.

The mother, Sandra Banning, is a born-again Christian and supporter of the pledge. "I object to his inclusion of our daughter" in the case, she said earlier Wednesday on ABC's "Good Morning America" show. She said she worries that her daughter will be "the child who is remembered as the little girl who changed the Pledge of Allegiance."

Newdow had sued the school and won, setting up the landmark appeal before a court that has repeatedly barred school-sponsored prayer from classrooms, playing fields and school ceremonies. But justices could dodge the issue altogether if they decide that Newdow needed the mother's consent, because she has primary custody.

Rehnquist said that the issues raised in the case "certainly have nothing to do with domestic relations." And, Justice David H. Souter said that Newdow could argue that his interest in his child "is enough to give him personal standing."

Solicitor General Theodore Olson, the Bush administration lawyer arguing for the school district, said that the mother was concerned that her daughter had been "thrust into the vortex of this constitutional case."

He said the Pledge of Allegiance should be upheld as a "ceremonial, patriotic exercise."

A new poll shows that Americans overwhelmingly support the reference to God. Almost nine in 10 people said the reference to God belongs in the pledge despite constitutional questions about the separation of church and state, according to an Associated Press poll.

Dozens of people camped outside the court on a cold night, bundled in layers and blankets, to be among the first in line to hear the historic case. "I just wanted to have a story to tell my grandkids," said Aron Wolgel, a junior from American University.

More than 100 supporters of the pledge began the day reciting the pledge and emphasizing the words "under God." Some supporters of the California father, outnumbered about four-to-one, shouted over the speeches of pledge proponents. They carried signs with slogans like "Democracy Not Theocracy."

God was not part of the original pledge written in 1892. Congress inserted it in 1954, after lobbying by religious leaders during the Cold War. Since then, it has become a familiar part of life for a generation of students.

Newdow compared the controversy to the issue of segregation in schools, which the Supreme Court took up 50 years ago in Brown v. Board of Education.

"Aren't we a better nation because we got rid of that stuff?" Newdow, a 50-year-old lawyer and doctor arguing his own case at the court, asked before the argument.

The AP poll, conducted by Ipsos-Public Affairs, found college graduates were more likely than those who did not have a college degree to say the phrase "under God" should be removed. Democrats and independents were more likely than Republicans to think the phrase should be taken out.

Justices could dodge the issue altogether. They have been urged to throw out the case, without a ruling on the constitutional issue, because of questions about whether Newdow had custody when he filed the suit and needed the mother's consent.

Absent from the case is one of the court's most conservative members, Justice Antonin Scalia (news - web sites), who bowed out after he criticized the ruling in Newdow's favor during a religious rally last year. Newdow had requested his recusal.

The case is Elk Grove Unified School District v. Newdow, 02-1624.

___

On the Net:

Supreme Court: http://www.supremecourtus.gov

9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals (news - web sites): http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Extended News; Front Page News; Government; US: California
KEYWORDS: antheism; antigod; atheist; childcustody; childcustodycase; freedomfromreligion; freedum; god; howdidhegethere; lawsuitabuse; newdow; onenationindivisible; pledge; religion; religiousintolerance; scotus; separation; unconstitutional; undergod
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To: TheEaglehasLanded
**This guy Newdow said he would drop the case if he got custody of his daughter. **

...which he has attempted repeatedly with no success. Thank God.

81 posted on 03/24/2004 5:37:09 PM PST by mrs tiggywinkle
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To: inquest
So what if they didn't make reference to God at every opportunity. The fact that they did make such references and engaged in such practices is what demonstrated their views on official religious expression.
The point is that when they were writing the supreme law of the land, they didn't make such reference at any opportunity, except for the ambiguous matter of the date. Yes, that demonstrated their views.

-Eric

82 posted on 03/24/2004 5:37:45 PM PST by E Rocc (Ich bein un Clinton Hasser)
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To: CA Conservative
**Actually, Newdow first filed a suit against the Federal government to have "In God We Trust" removed from our currency, but dropped that case in favor of this one because he thought he could win this one easier - it's for the children after all... **

Further, Newdow made the final decision to move to California because he considered it easier to further his agenda with the 9th circuit than with what is available in Florida.

83 posted on 03/24/2004 5:44:05 PM PST by mrs tiggywinkle
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To: E Rocc
You'll have to do better than finding something they didn't to in order to demonstrate their views. I've shown you what they did do, even after the Constitution went into effect. So you'd need to point to something they actually said or did that would contradict this.
84 posted on 03/24/2004 5:46:31 PM PST by inquest (The only problem with partisanship is that it leads to bipartisanship)
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To: inquest
Let's change "under God" to "under Allah" and then listen to the wailing and gnashing of teeth.
85 posted on 03/24/2004 5:49:08 PM PST by breakem
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To: breakem
Good luck getting the votes on that.
86 posted on 03/24/2004 5:51:16 PM PST by inquest (The only problem with partisanship is that it leads to bipartisanship)
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To: inquest
I think we should vote on which God we force kids to recite about. Great stuff!
87 posted on 03/24/2004 5:54:48 PM PST by breakem
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To: breakem
Who's being forced?
88 posted on 03/24/2004 5:56:09 PM PST by inquest (The only problem with partisanship is that it leads to bipartisanship)
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To: inquest
when you tell kids to say the pledge, sit through it or excuse them from the room they are being forced or singled out because they don't believe in the government's or majority's view of God. You remember elementary school don't you?
89 posted on 03/24/2004 5:57:54 PM PST by breakem
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To: MineralMan
Might I ask you a question about this whole brouhaha? I promise to keep it civil.
90 posted on 03/24/2004 5:58:46 PM PST by Xenalyte (in memory of James Edward Peck, my grandfather, who passed on 3/23/04)
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Comment #91 Removed by Moderator

To: breakem
The peer pressures kids face at school are not a political issue. It's not the same thing at all as forcing someone to do anything. One might as well argue that the entire Pledge itself is unconstitutional, since it "forces" kids to say something that they might not be inclined to say.
92 posted on 03/24/2004 6:07:49 PM PST by inquest (The only problem with partisanship is that it leads to bipartisanship)
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To: inquest
when you do this during class time and require the kids prescence or make an exception of the kid it is government pressure. Pressure on kids whose parents don't want the government to indoctrinate their children regarding religious concepts.
93 posted on 03/24/2004 6:09:25 PM PST by breakem
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To: breakem
...or make an exception of the kid...

What exactly does that mean? Either he participates or he doesn't. If he doesn't, he's "making an exception" of himself, and nothing happens to him as a result. If he is treated any differently because of it, then that's something that needs to be dealt with. Otherwise, there's no plausible argument that he's being forced to do anything - beyond self-consciousness, that is. And self-consciousness is something atheists and other religious minorities will have to deal with all their lives in an overwhelmingly Christian country. The fact that they're having to deal with it in a public school setting doesn't change anything.

There are a lot worse types of conformity pressure than that - much of it imposed by the teachers - that kids have to deal with in school, yet no one considers it a constitutional issue.

94 posted on 03/24/2004 6:19:26 PM PST by inquest (The only problem with partisanship is that it leads to bipartisanship)
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To: inquest
kids shouldn't have to chose to participate in pledge ceremonies which call upon God in public school. Making an exception is sending the kid out of the room to avoid it or having them sit. It means the kid is not part of the class activity being required by the governmental authority. It means you are imposing a religious belief upon the kid against the wishes of their parent. Why is this such a difficult concept. The only reason it is being done now is the ranting and raving of the majority wanting to kee[ their idea pf God in a school system which is for all children..
95 posted on 03/24/2004 6:24:44 PM PST by breakem
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To: breakem
Making an exception is sending the kid out of the room to avoid it or having them sit.

What if the kid wanted to stand but remain silent? I've never heard of that not being allowed.

96 posted on 03/24/2004 6:31:17 PM PST by inquest (The only problem with partisanship is that it leads to bipartisanship)
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To: Modernman
"The 9th Circuit's ruling then remains in force, but only in the 9th Circuit. It does not apply to any other Circuits."

Thanks. I was afraid of that.
97 posted on 03/24/2004 6:35:02 PM PST by SendShaqtoIraq
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To: inquest
Then the kid is not speaking like the rest of the class. The religious beliefs of the kid or the non beliefs should not be exposed for public view because of government sponsored pledges which call upon God.

That's a religious concept and it doesn't belong in a class-time recital of a pledge. That's my position. I understand we disagree and I know I'm in the minority. I just believe I'm right. Again, substitue Allah and all the Christians will agree with me.

98 posted on 03/24/2004 6:36:27 PM PST by breakem
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To: breakem
Again, substitue Allah and all the Christians will agree with me.

What if we substitute Marx? Would the constitutional issue then disappear?

99 posted on 03/24/2004 6:38:31 PM PST by inquest (The only problem with partisanship is that it leads to bipartisanship)
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To: inquest
It's not a religious concept unless you can prove it is. I have no objection to a pledge to the country in a government school. If you can force fit Marx into that and get a congressional respolution, have a good time.
100 posted on 03/24/2004 6:41:52 PM PST by breakem
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