Atheist Calls Pledge Unconstitutional

Yahoo! News ^ | 3/24/04 | Gina Holland - AP

[breakem]

uh, resolution

[E Rocc]

That's a religious concept and it doesn't belong in a class-time recital of a pledge. That's my position. I understand we disagree and I know I'm in the minority. I just believe I'm right. Again, substitue Allah and all the Christians will agree with me.

"Allah" is Arabic for "God". Any Muslim can recite the Pledge as it exists with a clear conscience. They truly believe that the nation is indeed subordinate to God.

The principle that there is one Deity is a religious principle. The idea that the nation is subordinate to that Deity is even more of one. It simply does not belong in a statement meant to affirm one's allegiance to a nation that affirms, as one of it's founding principles, complete freedom of relgious conscience.

-Eric

[breakem]

I believe many here would change their opinion if the word Allah was substituted.

[inquest]

It's not a religious concept unless you can prove it is.

What difference does it make whether it's a religious concept? If the children are being "forced" to say something against their consciences then it's unconstitutional, right?

[breakem]

I was discussing religious freedom and the government's roll. If a kid doesn't want to salute the flag then don't do it. That's different than acknowledging God because the government wants you to pledge and do so. To use government force or coercion to recite a pledge including God seems a violation of the first on religious grounds.

[E Rocc]

It doesn't serve a secular purpose, obviously. It serves a religious one - which, given that the US is one of the most religious countries in the world, is what most Americans want. The US Consitution does not require a secular state - only that an official religion not be established, AND that the free exercise of religion not be prohibited. This is part of the free exercise part, E Rocc. You may not like it, but so what? There are lots of things our government does that each person doesn't like.

Thanks for being honest about what the purpose of this bill was.

However, such honesty presented before the US Supreme Court would not be rewarded. The right of free exercise is a right granted to individuals, not government. When governmental entities express religious preference as a matter of policy or practice, it is considered Establishment.

The Supreme Court established clear guidelines in Lemon v. Kurtzman (1971) as to when the Establishment clause is being violated. To meet the Clause, a law:

-must have a secular legislative purpose
-its principal or primary effect must be one that neither advances nor inhibits religion.
-the statute must not foster "an excessive government entanglement with religion."

As you pointed out, the 1954 law does not have a secular purpose. Equally obviously, its intent is to advance religion. Therefore, it fails a basic test that the Court has consistently applied over the last thirty years.

There's little if any chance that the Court will overturn Lemon, especially since the same Court voted 6-3 to forbid the elections for the "official" prayer before public school extracurricular activities in Santa Fe ISD v. Doe (1999). I believe Scalia knew this before he made the comments that caused him to disqualify himself.

-Eric

[E Rocc]

I believe many here would change their opinion if the word Allah was substituted.

I am 100% positive you are correct. My point was that it means the exact same thing.

-Eric

[E Rocc]

I was discussing religious freedom and the government's roll. If a kid doesn't want to salute the flag then don't do it. That's different than acknowledging God because the government wants you to pledge and do so. To use government force or coercion to recite a pledge including God seems a violation of the first on religious grounds.

Force doesn't matter. The Court has consistently ruled that even "voluntary" prayers in public schools constitute Establishment.

-Eric

[newfarm4000n]

What about polytheistic Americans ? I'm not an atheist but I'm not sure whether there is one creator or many . Whilst i think that the pledge is a very minor issue this idea that somebody is either a (Jewish/Christian/Islamic etc)monotheist or an atheist is absurd. Whats wrong with simply saying "may America be blessed" leaving who ( or who doesn't) do the blessing up to the individual.

[E Rocc]

What about polytheistic Americans ? I'm not an atheist but I'm not sure whether there is one creator or many . Whilst i think that the pledge is a very minor issue this idea that somebody is either a (Jewish/Christian/Islamic etc)monotheist or an atheist is absurd. Whats wrong with simply saying "may America be blessed" leaving who ( or who doesn't) do the blessing up to the individual.

It's a little better but I'd say that a patriotic affirmation should be as all-inclusive as possible, especially when referring to the nation as "indivisible". The pre-1954 version does exactly that.

-Eric

[ATOMIC_PUNK]

Atheist Calls Pledge Unconstitutional

Atheism is Unconstitutional !

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. a·the·ism    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (th-zm)
n.

1. 1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
   2. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.
2. Godlessness; immorality.

Atheism

\A"the*ism\, n. [Cf. F. ath['e]isme. See Atheist.] 1. The disbelief or denial of the existence of a God, or supreme intelligent Being.

Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall.

Atheism and pantheism are often wrongly confounded. --Shipley.

2. Godlessness.

Atheism

n 1: the doctrine or belief that there is no God [syn: godlessness] [ant: theism] 2: a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods

[Nowhere Man]

You know what. I know I'm just venting here, but deep down, I'm getting sick and tired of people like Michael Newdow, the pro-homosexual marriage croud, and so on, I'm getting to the point where we should just take up a collection and buy these people tickets to where they belong or where they would fit in better. I mean I'd like to send Newdow to Cuba or North Korea, I think he'd be happier there than here and the homosexual marriage proponents to Holland or wherever they want to go.

Should have played the powerball, maybe if I win, I could take pilot's lessons, buy an old C-123 or maybe a DC-7/Super Constellation/707/DC-8 if lucky or something like that and we can do it ourselves. B-P Heck, I'd bum my buddy's small boat to take Newdow to Cuba personally, but I'm afraid the Cubans would shoot us up, well, Newdow, no great loss, but if I survive, I'd put my friendship in danger when he finds out the Cubans shot his boat up and we've been hanging around together since the 4th grade in 1976. B-)

I think like many here, I'm just getting sick and tired of all this crap. Sorry to vent guys, but I had to do it.

I just think the way America is going, it ain't gonna be worth fighting for anymore unless we start saying "no." I'll be 38 in July and I felt I've seen a lot of changes even in my short life, when compared to others.

[inquest]

To use government force or coercion to recite a pledge including God seems a violation of the first on religious grounds.

To use government force or coercion to recite any pledge is clearly a violation of freedom of speech. So the only question is whether force is involved. If it is, then the entire pledge has to go.

[COEXERJ145]

This makes me think of the a shirt I saw a while back:

God is Dead -Nietzsche

Nietzsche is Dead- God

[newfarm4000n]

I would disagree. An affirmation is not universal or else it would be pointless. I dont feel the need to daily affirm that murder is wrong.

Patriotic exercises almost by definition exist for the very need that some members may be waining on their patriotism and it would be best to constantly emphasize patriotism. I am a Patriotic American but i also believe that god should be out of the pledge and individual silent thought on "higher powers/lack of" be granted.. even if most kids use it to daydream about their girlfriend.

I frown on politically active atheists even more than Christians do because they never acknowledge that you can believe in god but not be religious.

[Diver Dave]

[breakem]

good point

[breakem]

we are in agreement

[MineralMan]

"Might I ask you a question about this whole brouhaha? I promise to keep it civil."

Sure. I had to leave earlier, so this is the next day. I'm always happy to answer questions.