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Withholding Identity From a Law Officer: Your Right or Not?
Associated Press ^ | March 23, 2004 | Gina Holland

Posted on 03/23/2004 6:10:30 AM PST by wallcrawlr

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Do you have to tell the police your name? Depending on how the Supreme Court rules in a case before it Monday, the answer could be the difference between arrest and freedom.

The court took up the appeal of a Nevada cattle rancher who was arrested after he told a deputy that he had done nothing wrong and didn't have to reveal his name or show an ID during an encounter on a rural highway four years ago. Larry Hiibel, 59, was prosecuted under a state statute that requires people to identify themselves to the police if stopped "under circumstances which reasonably indicate that the person has committed, is committing or is about to commit a crime."

The case will clarify police powers in the post-Sept. 11 era, determining whether officials can demand to see identification whenever they deem it necessary.

Nevada Senior Deputy Attorney General Conrad Hafen told the justices that "identifying yourself is a neutral act" that helps police in their investigations and doesn't -- by itself -- incriminate anyone.

But if that is allowed, several justices asked, what will be next? A fingerprint? Telephone number? E-mail address?

"The government could require name tags, color codes," Hiibel's attorney, Robert Dolan, told the court.

At the heart of the case is an intersection of the Fourth Amendment, which protects people from unreasonable searches, and the Fifth Amendment right to remain silent. Hiibel claims both of those rights were violated.

Justice Antonin Scalia, however, expressed doubts. He said officers faced with suspicious people need authority to get the facts. "I cannot imagine any responsible citizen would have objected to giving the name," Scalia said.

Justices are revisiting their 1968 decision that said police may briefly detain someone on reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing, without the stronger standard of probable cause, to get more information. Nevada argues that during such brief detentions, known as Terry stops after the 1968 ruling, people should be required to answer questions about their identities.

Justice Sandra Day O'Connor pointed out that the court has never given police the authority to demand someone's identification without probable cause that they have done something wrong. But she also acknowledged that police might want to run someone's name through computers to check for a criminal history.

Hiibel was approached by a deputy in May 2000 next to a pickup truck parked off a road near Winnemucca, Nev. The officer, called to the scene because of a complaint about arguing between Hiibel and his daughter, asked Hiibel 11 times for his identification or his name. He refused, at one point saying, "If you've got something, take me to jail."

Hiibel was convicted of a misdemeanor charge of resisting arrest. He was fined $250.

(Excerpt) Read more at startribune.com ...


TOPICS: Extended News
KEYWORDS: hiibel; id; privacy; scotus; yourpapersplease
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To: GreatEconomy
I have tried to stay factual in our discussion. I apologize where I have deviated from that. It is hard for me to not fall into personal attacks when I am dealing with people who are so full of themselves they think their own crap don't stink. And you made it hard.

Interesting that NOT one of your posts deals with the facts of this case and ALL are about attacking and demeaning others.

241 posted on 03/23/2004 11:11:07 AM PST by cinFLA
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To: cinFLA
Since you have so much time to yelp about personal attacks, perhaps you'll find a minute to respond to this:

I guess your solution would be to take down the guy and handcuff him till you could determine if a crime had been committed.

No, that would not be necessary in order to ask the girl, "Was this man hitting you?" And why was knowing his name necessary in order to ask the girl?

242 posted on 03/23/2004 11:12:44 AM PST by Sweet Land
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To: JackRyanCIA; Sweet Land
Did not see that. If true, and I assume it was since you said there was a tape.....then the bloody jerk was I lucky I didn't see it. Totally different story. He has no case. ;-)

It's in the court records.

243 posted on 03/23/2004 11:12:56 AM PST by cinFLA
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To: Sweet Land
The guy approached the cop. The cop has a right to know who is approaching him and why he approached him.
244 posted on 03/23/2004 11:13:59 AM PST by cinFLA
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To: cinFLA
I guess your solution would be to take down the guy and handcuff him till you could determine if a crime had been committed.

No, that would not be necessary in order to ask the girl, "Was this man hitting you?"

I see you're now dodging the whole question of determining if a crime had been committed.

And why was knowing his name necessary in order to ask the girl?

The guy approached the cop. The cop has a right to know who is approaching him and why he approached him.

Baloney. The guy had as much right to be walking along the shoulder as the cop did; if the cop was concerned, he needed only to say, "Stand back, sir, I'm conducting an investigation."

245 posted on 03/23/2004 11:20:34 AM PST by Sweet Land
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To: Sweet Land
The cop was following state law. You have a problem with the cop following the law?
246 posted on 03/23/2004 11:22:01 AM PST by cinFLA
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To: Sweet Land
Baloney. The guy had as much right to be walking along the shoulder as the cop did;

Yea. Did you see him wandering and rambling about how his car was parked legally? The guy was a real idiot. Notice the nice skid marks as he parked the truck.

247 posted on 03/23/2004 11:23:31 AM PST by cinFLA
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To: cinFLA
The guy was a real idiot.

That's not a crime (for which some FReepers should be thankful).

248 posted on 03/23/2004 11:24:12 AM PST by Sweet Land
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To: cinFLA
The cop was following state law. You have a problem with the cop following the law?

I have a problem with a state law that requires self-identification that is not necessary to a police investigation.

249 posted on 03/23/2004 11:25:56 AM PST by Sweet Land
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To: Sweet Land
That's not a crime

According to NV law his actions were criminal.

250 posted on 03/23/2004 11:26:34 AM PST by cinFLA
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To: Sweet Land
I have a problem with a state law that requires self-identification that is not necessary to a police investigation.

I see. When cops investigate crimes they should make no attempt to find out who they are interviewing ...

251 posted on 03/23/2004 11:27:56 AM PST by cinFLA
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To: Sweet Land
The courts are too busy inventing new "rights" (e.g., abortion and gay sex) to protect the ones we already have.

You have nailed the Ninth CCofA right on the head!

252 posted on 03/23/2004 11:30:06 AM PST by cinFLA
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To: Aura Of The Blade
Hey! How you doin'? Yeah, I was having alot of problems with AOL so we gave them the boot (jack boot) hahaha.

Just got back from lunch with the Mrs.'s. I see that I still have a way of endearing myself to some of the FReepers here.

I think your right about the National ID card. Hope I'm still young enough to tote my M-14 around.

253 posted on 03/23/2004 11:34:41 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: cinFLA
The guy was a real idiot.

That's not a crime

According to NV law his actions were criminal.

It's a bad law; that's the point.

254 posted on 03/23/2004 11:45:42 AM PST by Sweet Land
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To: cinFLA
I have a problem with a state law that requires self-identification that is not necessary to a police investigation.

I see. When cops investigate crimes they should make no attempt to find out who they are interviewing ...

They should be allowed to ask; if it has not yet even been established that a crime has been committed, citizens should be allowed to not answer.

255 posted on 03/23/2004 11:47:14 AM PST by Sweet Land
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To: Wolfie
reply to: "Slam dunk. Of course you have to identify yourself to police."

You would think! Unless, of course, you have something to hide! Plus, it would make a great alibi just in case someone else was committing a crime, while pretending to be you - that is one hell of a long shot, huh?

I have been detained briefly many times by officers, every single time, the officers involved were very polite, and it never took very long to clear me of any wrong doing. Except for a few speeding tickets. Bummer, huh?

BUT, I'm white, and polite.

If I were of color, or rude, or actually had committed a crime, perhaps I would feel differently. But as it is, I feel that the vast majority of police officers are just trying their best to do a very difficult job.
256 posted on 03/23/2004 11:48:43 AM PST by RonHolzwarth
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To: RonHolzwarth
Unless, of course, you have something to hide!

Window curtains and blinds should be outlawed. What do people have to hide?

257 posted on 03/23/2004 11:50:42 AM PST by Sweet Land
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To: muggs
You said: How can one be guilty of resisting arrest if they aren't also convicted of another crime?
That's something I have always wondered about.

This country is (or is supposed to be) governed by the rule of law. People ARE arrested who are not subsequently convicted. That doesn't give you the right to resist arrest. Arrest is not conviction. Arrest is not even being charged. Arrest is being stopped. This power of law enforcement is essential to keeping the peace and apprehending criminals. By the way, how do you know what you have been arrested for if you resist and get away? Sorry, I take the side of law enforcement on this. (and, as Star Jones would say, I AM a lawyer --but not a criminal defense lawyer)
258 posted on 03/23/2004 11:51:48 AM PST by NCLaw441
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To: Sweet Land
They should be allowed to ask; if it has not yet even been established that a crime has been committed, citizens should be allowed to not answer.

But it is never established that a crime has been committed until a jury finds someone guilty of a crime.

259 posted on 03/23/2004 11:52:09 AM PST by cinFLA
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To: Sweet Land
Is the Supreme Court going to create a constitutional right not to be identified? I certainly hope not. Unless the request results in abuse by the police officer, why would we think that we have a right to refuse to answer the question: "Who are you?" Is it self-incrimination to identify oneself? Sorry, this is insane.
260 posted on 03/23/2004 11:55:38 AM PST by NCLaw441
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