Church divided over lesbian pastor's acquittal(They shouldn't be divided!)

Spokesman Review ^ | 03/22/2004 | Shannon Dininny, AP

[dandelion]

As a long-time Methodist, I think I have a pretty good grip on the internal workings of the elite, liberal ruling class of the Church. My take: this was a "done deal" from the very beginning. No jurors voted to convict at the trial; if none who called her to trial were calling for her conviction, then why was Dammann called to trial in the first place?

I believe there WAS NO CALL TO CONVICT from the liberal heirachy of the Methodist Church. Rather, Dammann was called to trial for the express purpose of producing an aquittal, and with the knowledge that there would be NO CONVICTION.

I believe this "jury trial" was merely an act to establish precedent, and to pave the way for the bigger agenda at the General Conference.

I am so torn; I spoke specifically to my local Church about the "end run" that would take place regarding this issue, and called for an open but loving debate on this subject. They did not understand, and instead have chosen a full embrace, rather than debate, out of fear they would be branded as "hateful". I have many of my near aquaintances who are homosexual, and I do not "hate" any of them; still, I do not believe Christianity calls for a world built around sexual orientation rather than family.

I have always said that if one didn't agree with the policies of certain establishments, one should change it or leave it - but pick one. I have tried to change the establishment of my Church. Sadly, it may never work; now perhaps it is time to leave it...

[GeronL]

Someone once gave me a link to a religion resource website and now I can't rememnber.... darn

[teletech]

Think of Lutherans as Catholic light. Think of Methodists as Lutheran light. I like to think of Methodists as a cross between Catholicism and Baptists.

I've been called a lot of things but "Catholic light", that's a new one on me!

[dandelion]

Here's the website for the "Confessing Movement" - the conservative wing of the Church...

http://www.confessingumc.org/

I'm checking it out to see if there is anything we can do from the inside.

[birdsman]

There's another hearing that she will have to face after she dies. 'nuff said.

[nightdriver]

"They split from the Catholic church a long time ago."

Yes they did, but Henry VIII had already split the Church of England off of the Roman church before that.

The Methodists, under John Wesley, found themselves alienated from a very unspiritual Church of England. At the first, Methodists were very solid in the faith.

Ol' John Wesley is probably turning about 500 rpm in his grave over what the Methodists have become.

These poor people have become misled about God and the purpose He has for mankind. They desperately need our prayers.

[Redcoat LI]

In general, the hierarchy and spokesmen who spend the money are activist liberal and the people who pay the tithes are silent and dumb conservative.

Sounds familiar

[GeronL]

meta-religion.com

Thats the one.

[RedlegCPT]

Thy this link http://www.unitedmethodist.org/ or this link http://www.umc.org/

[GeronL]

Name: The United Methodist Church

Founders: Although the United Methodist Church is actually the current result of several schisms and mergers within and among different churches, the United Methodist Church considers its founder to be John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist movement. 1

Date of Birth: John Wesley was born in 1703 in England. He died in 1791. 2

Date/Place Founded: Wesley founded The Methodist Church in London in 1739. 3 However, the church that we know today as the United Methodist Church was not founded until April 23, 1968 in Dallas, Texas as a result of the unification of The Methodist Church and The Evangelical United Brethren Church.

[GeronL]

There are apprx. 8.4 million Methodists in the US about a million in other countries. OKay, thats United Methodists.

[dandelion]

AH - HERE WE GO -

Petitions before the General Conference:

http://www.umc.org/Calms/Petition.asp?mid=2886

Almost FORTY petitions regarding homosexuality - the vast majority of them calling for acceptance in the Methodist Church. Most notable, this one regarding Scouting:

Submitted Petition Text: Inclusiveness, Scouting, and Other Youth-Serving Groups

WHEREAS, The United Methodist Church affirms that "inclusiveness denies every semblance of discrimination" and holds that "(t)he mark of an inclusive society is one in which all persons are open, welcoming, fully accepting, and supporting of all other persons, enabling them to participate fully in the life of the church, the community and the world" Discipline, 2000, ¶ 138), and

WHEREAS, our denomination "implore(s) families and churches not to reject or condemn their lesbian and gay members and friends," and promises "to be in ministry for and with all persons" (Discipline, 2000, ¶ 161G), and

WHEREAS, the General Conference of 1996 approved a "Call for a Rebirth of Compassion" (Book of Resolutions, 2000, pages 500-01) in which it "call(ed) on our churches to reach out in love and compassion to all persons, regardless of race, economic condition, sexual preference, and religious persuasion, becoming beacons of love in a stormy sea of hatred, discrimination, and violence," and

WHEREAS, the General Conference of 2000 dedicated our church "to a ministry of Christ-like hospitality and compassion to persons of all sexual orientations ..." and recommended "welcoming sexual minorities, their friends, and families into our churches ..." ("Church to Be in Ministry to Persons of All Sexual Orientations," Book of Resolutions, 2000, pages 133, 134), and

WHEREAS, the denomination in 2000 provided that the Scouting Ministries office of United Methodist Men would expand to cover other "civic youth-serving agencies," which include not only Boy Scouts of America but also "Girl Scouts of the USA, Camp Fire Boys and Girls, 4-H, and such appropriate organizations within the General Conferences" Discipline, 2000, ¶ 2302.5), and

WHEREAS, our church now lists "the Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Camp Fire Boys and Girls, 4-H, or other appropriate national organizations" as presenting "another setting for ministry to children, youth, their leaders, and their families" at the local church level (Discipline, 2000, ¶ 255.3), and

WHEREAS, the Girl Scouts of the USA, Camp Fire USA, and 4-H do not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation,

Therefore, be it resolved, that:

1)  If local churches or other units within the denomination are considering the sponsorship of youth-serving organizations they should work wherever possible with those groups that are fully inclusive, and

2)  If local churches or other units within the denomination already sponsor Boy Scout activities, they should work to make the Boy Scouts of America fully inclusive.  These efforts should initially include, without being limited to, discussing inclusiveness with parents and local and regional scout leaders and committees, informing appropriate scouting officials that the local scouting group wishes to be fully inclusive, and requesting local and regional scouting officials to work for official Boy Scout membership policy to become fully inclusive.

3)  If, after dialogue with local and regional Boy Scout leaders, local churches or other entities discover that these officials are not willing to support a policy of inclusiveness, then the local church or other sponsoring group should either affiliate with another national organization that is fully inclusive or, if it prefers, challenge the leadership by becoming fully inclusive on its own.

Submitted By Cynthia Williams Oklahoma City OK

[BykrBayb]

I thought it was "Brothel" not Bothell.

I suspect it was a typo, and you read it right the first time.

[hunter112]

I thought it was "Brothel" not Bothell.

I suspect it was a typo, and you read it right the first time.

Maybe you're both wrong, and its' "Bought Hell".

[supercat]

I am so torn; I spoke specifically to my local Church about the "end run" that would take place regarding this issue, and called for an open but loving debate on this subject. They did not understand, and instead have chosen a full embrace, rather than debate, out of fear they would be branded as "hateful". I have many of my near aquaintances who are homosexual, and I do not "hate" any of them; still, I do not believe Christianity calls for a world built around sexual orientation rather than family.

To my mind, churches need to take a few lessons from the Parable of the Prodigal Son. The father most likely knew that his son was foolish, and told him so, but did not stop the son from going out to discover his foolishness for himself. The father did not support the son in his foolishness, but welcomed his son back when he repented and renounced his wicked ways.

I perceive that some churches are afraid to take strong moral stances for fear of 'scaring off' sinners. IMHO, this is a big mistake; it would be akin to the Prodigal Son's father continuously wiring him money to bail him out of any financial difficulties.

No matter what a church tries to do, some people are going to ignore moral teachings and engage in all sorts of depravity and wickedness. Rather than trying to provide support for people who engage in such wickedness (which would in turn just enable it), a church should instead recognize that the hedonists are going to eventually find that something is missing from their life. It may take years or even decades, but eventually hedonists will realize that the their care-free lifestyle can't supply the spiritual nourishment they desparately need.

Trying to plant God's seeds of wisdom in people will be futile if the people's souls are hard and barren and aren't willing to accept it. But when people soften up after discovering that their lives are really empty, then the seeds of wisdom can germinate and bear fruit.

[luckymom]

I did something. 16 months ago, I left the ELCA church I belonged to all my life, and attend a non-denominational Bible teaching church. I now know what it truly means to have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour. The direction of so many mainline denominations is a tragedy, IMHO.

[Waco]

ZOT!! is VERY unclear, don't you see?

[radiohead]

I think in the main Protestant sects...Methodist, Presbyterian, and Episcopal.....if you have conservative beliefs, I don't know how you can either allow this sanctifying of gay clergy to go on, or how you can remain in your churches....

being gay, and being an openly gay minister are two differant things....

You make some good points. My sister is Episcopalian and is seriously considering joining Mel Gibson's branch of Catholicism.

I'm in Seattle and watched all this Methodist stuff in the news. I have gay relatives and friends and generally wish them well. However, does the Bible say what it says or not? Does the Methodist discipline book say what it says or not? I do not understand how an open, practising gay person can be a Methodist minister when their rules say she cannot.

Does the law mean anything?

[familyop]

"THE BIBLE IS VERY CLEAR ON THIS ISSUE! WHY ARE WE DEBATING PREJUDICE?"

This might help to understand the mentality behind such debates if you have plenty of time to follow links and read.

There were two very similar churches in early 1800s America that were mysticist, illuminist, feminist, romanticist and anti-scriptural (although they say that they only believe scripture to be "secondary," and so forth). Those religions exist today and continue their earlier work--to spread illuminism (the god within, "inner light,"...) to Protestantism and Judaism. Their members intentionally become members of more scriptural churches in order to incrementally reverse scriptural beliefs.

When one is in transition toward dismissing scripture, one will argue with it. When one no longer believes in scripture at all (e.g., that our Father of the Old Testament was no more than a negative "Author" of the universe, that the Satan of the Garden of Eden was the hero for humanity, etc.), one does not care what scripture says.

http://familyops.us/anthonyproject/Susan_B_Anthony_Devil.html

It tells some of the story of what happened to Protestantism.

[I still care]

This was one unbelievable case, without any regard for the law of the church.

From what I understand, the church law prohibits the ordination of practicing, self avowed homosexuals. This whole thing started when this "minister" and her partner went to get married, I think in Portland.

So I don't understand how she could be acquitted. I mean, don't two lesbians getting married and reciting "vows" make you a professing homosexual? Give me a break.

I guess it's one of those liberal things, you don't have to follow the law if you don't approve of it.

It makes one want to pull one's hair out. If they don't like the law, change it or change their denomination. But stop lying to themselves and everyone else. It's so Clintonesque - I guess it is based on what your definition of IS is.