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To: NYer
It isn't about prayer, is it. It's about attempting to violate Bounds that God laid down and that cannot be violated. He said the bodily, not spiritually, dead can have nothing to do with the affairs of the bodily living here on earth. The old testament is full of condemnations to death for anyone who would attempt to communicate with the dead. That includes speaking to them if you don't understand what communicate means. And last time I checked, asking favors from or praying to people who are bodily dead requires you to speak. God was wise in His judgements and left no outs on this. That is why the Israelites knew better than to toy with God on it and the Bible records people being put to death for it. Saul among them.
303 posted on 03/19/2004 4:55:36 PM PST by Havoc ("The line must be drawn here. This far and no further!")
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To: Havoc
And last time I checked, asking favors from or praying to people who are bodily dead requires you to speak.

"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints." - Revelations 5:8

2683. "The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom, [Cf. Heb 12:1 .] especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer by the example of their lives, the transmission of their writings, and their prayer today. They contemplate God, praise him and constantly care for those whom they have left on earth. When they entered into the joy of their Master, they were 'put in charge of many things.' [Cf. Mt 25:21.] Their intercession is their most exalted service to God's plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world."
Catechism of the Catholic Church

352 posted on 03/19/2004 6:15:17 PM PST by NYer (Ad Jesum per Mariam)
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To: Havoc; dangus; Salve Regina
The old testament is full of condemnations to death for anyone who would attempt to communicate with the dead.

We're discussing two very different concepts here. You are alluding to divination; catholics believe in the intercession of the Communion of Saints.

In praying to the saints, one is not seeking knowledge about the future, but rather asking for their prayers. James 5:16 states: "The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective." The saints in heaven are not dead; they are more alive than we are. Scripture never says that those who die in the Lord are "dead." If we can ask one another to pray for each other, why can we not ask those already in the presence of God to pray for us? Is this not what Revelations 5:8 speaks of when it tells us that the 24 elders offer the bowls of incense that are the prayers of the saints? Also, if "communicating" is condemned, why does Jesus communicate with Moses at the Mount of Transfiguration in Luke 9? Deuteronomy 34:5 tells us explicitly that Moses died. Hebrews 12:1 speaks of a great cloud of witnesses. Scripture tells us that Christ is the vine and we are the branches. I know of no Scripture that says that earthly death separates us from that vine.

367 posted on 03/19/2004 6:28:40 PM PST by NYer (Ad Jesum per Mariam)
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