[dangus]

"paid lipservice"

Amazing how ignorant people, when faced with an enigma, simply accuse the other of insincerity.

"paid lipservice"

yeah, like the Pope doesn't really believe in Christ as his redeemer. It's all a big act. You caught him.

Now, look more carefully at the words: "Obtain for us." Since when does "obtain for" mean "give to"? If he believed Mary was the source of salvation, he'd say, "Give us the grace of eternal salvation." No, those words are prayed to Jesus Christ alone.

To obtain something for someone is to get something FROM someone ELSE for that person. Christ gives us our salvation. He gives it to us THROUGH his Church, which is embodied in Mary (Rev 12), who has brought Christ into the world by her submitting herself to CHRIST'S will.

You want to go it alone, without Christ's church, fine, but don't twist words.

[Havoc]

I twisted nothing. Mary cannot obtain from Christ for you what Christ and the Apostles said you must obtain from Christ for yourself. Mary can't make you believe and can't make your mouth move in confession of it for you. I understand exactly what I'm saying and exactly why. The form of salvation you preach is another Gospel. This issue just shines a light on it's outer periphery to show the lengths to which the salvation method has been perverted from the simplicity it actually is in scripture.

[presidio9]

He intentionally changed the prayer to make it sound blasphemous. See post 199. Even with the changes, the message is still quite clear, as you've summed up nicely.