Gibson's passion film 'too Catholic'

Belfast Telegraph ^ | 19 March 2004 | Alf McCreary

[AMDG&BVMH]

'A very old priest once scolded me, "How dare you not pray for your ancestors who prayed for you, and those decendents to come, who will surely pray for you?"'

Indeed! (Where is that priest, and why aren't there more like him?)

P.S. I appreciate your sharp intellect and sharp wit on this thread. Esp. re: The Acts of the Apostles . . . ;)

[Havoc]

You say that Mary is not dead because she has spiritual life. The form of death being referred to by the other party is physical death. They are not one in the same.
Spiritual life confers nothing on Mary or any other human saved by Christ that allows them to forgo God's given boundaries. The Bodily dead are not deity, nor are they allowed to interfere with the goings on of the bodily living per Ecclessiastes 9 and a host of other OT scripture which forbade communicating with the physically dead under any form. That is the deciet. You attempt to confuse the two and in that deciet pretend as though it somehow nullifies God's statutes.

[Havoc]

You say that Mary is not dead because she has spiritual life. The form of death being referred to by the other party is physical death. They are not one in the same.
Spiritual life confers nothing on Mary or any other human saved by Christ that allows them to forgo God's given boundaries. The Bodily dead are not deity, nor are they allowed to interfere with the goings on of the bodily living per Ecclessiastes 9 and a host of other OT scripture which forbade communicating with the physically dead under any form. That is the deciet. You attempt to confuse the two and in that deciet pretend as though it somehow nullifies God's statutes.

[Havoc]

In Matthew 17, do Elijah and Moses not appear to Jesus, Peter, James, and John?

In fact they do appear - in a vision, not bodily. Matthew 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Why pray to another spiritual being? Show me one example in Scripture where an Apostle or Prophet did so!

The Apostle John's vision of the Apocalypse:

5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

8:3 And another angel came and stood before the altar, having a golden censer: and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints, upon the golden altar which is before the throne of God. 4 And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.

[nickcarraway]

Why does Paul say in 2 Thessalonians 1:11 that is he is praying for people? Was that wrong of him?

More importantly why did Paul ask others to pray for him? (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1) Why would Paul ask others to pray for him? Paul clearly believes it is not a sin to pray for others, or to ask for other to pray for you. Why would it be wrong to ask anyone connected to you in the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12: esp.27;Ephesians 4:esp.12) to pray for you?

Paul had better not thing praying for other is a sin. Jesus Himself commanded it: But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;(Matthew 5:44)

[TOUGH STOUGH]

"I can almost guarantee that it is a minor point that non-Catholics have attributed undeserved significance to."

A great response which is all "too true."

You are an excellent and articulate witness to the Catholic faith! All of your replies really hit the nail on the head! Bravo and thank you.

[Havoc]

You're quoting from a book of prophecy wherein what the writer is seeing is symbolic. Or do you think that the woman on the beast later in the book is literal.. Furthermore, it doesn't show the angel or the ancients being prayed to. Strike one, and two. next.

[Ciexyz]

I didn't think the film was "too Catholic" in its emphasis on Mary the Mother of Jesus. The film never made her appear as a goddess figure, just as a concerned and heartbroken mother. I thought Maya Morgenstern's portrayal was beautiful and should be worthy of an Oscar nomination, if Hollywood was in the mood to reward a religious film (which it isn't).

[nickcarraway]

You are the one who is adding terms to the Bible; I just quoted the Bible. If you don't think the Bible is properly written, take it up with the authors or write your own.

[Havoc]

Sorry, you can play word games all you wish. God Corrected Peter and told them to listen to Jesus. Jesus flatly stated then that it was a vision, not a visitation. Wiggle and squirm. It is written.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Furthermore, it doesn't show the angel or the ancients being prayed to.

Read it again. The elders and angels are offering the prayers which they have received to God.

[nickcarraway]

So you believe they were sinning against Deuteronomy 18:10–11? No, Deuteronomy 18:10–11 is against necromancy. Jesus was not practicing necromancy, and neither are we if we ask saints to pray to God for us. How do you explain Revelation 5:8?

[TRY ONE]

"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.(Revelations 5:8)"

"Saints" in this case are all BELIEVERS.
Romans 1:7 --- "to ALL who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints".

"Saints" mean "holy ones" or "set-apart ones". The New Testament designates all believers as "saints" because they are by position holy and set apart to God (Phil. 4:21; Col. 1:2)

[nickcarraway]

You say that Mary is not dead because she has spiritual life. The form of death being referred to by the other party is physical death. They are not one in the same.

I agree, she is physically dead, but is still alive. Just because she is no longer alive on this earth, does not mean she isn't still worshiping God. She is among the saints whose prayers are mentioned in Revelation 5:8.