Troll hides for years in closet, emerges for ZOT!!!

"1. Bush is against campaign finance reform; then he's for it."

I never heard Bush say that he was "for" it. When Congress sent it to him, yeah, he signed it - and made it clear he felt it was unconstitutional and suggested the Supreme Court should review it and judge it that way. One can argue that he should've used the veto on that one... and I don't disagree with that... but there's a big difference between being loathe to use a veto and being "for" something.

"2. Bush is against a Homeland Security Department; then he's for it."

I can't recall ever hearing Bush say he was against a Homeland Security Dept. following 9/11.

"3. Bush is against a 9/11 commission; then he's for it."

This is one of those issues where the whining and complaining got to intense that it became so distracting from what really had to be done that it became enough of a priority to go ahead with, if only to put false rumors to bed. I still think it's idiocy to spend tons of money to find out what we already know - unless you're a drooling conspiracy idiot who believes "Bush knew", which means you wear an even bigger tin foil hat than Eric Alterman, and that's saying something.

"4. Bush is against an Iraq WMD investigation; then he's for it."

Come again? When was Bush -against- a WMD investigation? Source, please. (Watch, it'll be from The Guardian at best, maybe an unsigned email, and whatever it is it'll cite unnamed sources)

"5. Bush is against nation building; then he's for it."

Wow. You finally found one that's true. Yes - he was against it before 9/11. After 9/11, he decided that just sitting back and watching the Middle East devolve into a cess pool like others had allowed it to do for decades was too dangerous. Personally, I agreed with him before, AND I agree with him after. Actually being close enough to the WTC to see the smoke on 9/11 -does- make one reconsider such things... unless you're a Democrat, in which case it's always 9/10.

By the way - Democrats were all for nation building in the 90's. Now they're against it. Flip or flop? Was 9/11 what made you guys decide to give up on it? I'd love to see that bit of reasoning.

"6. Bush is against deficits; then he's for them."

Sources, please... although even if true, this would also describe the change in the prevailing view among most economists over the last 20 years.

"7. Bush is for free trade; then he's for tariffs on steel; then he's against them again."

I'll give you this one - I don't think anyone really knows what the deal was with steel tariffs... except that the steel unions really really wanted them. Normally, this would be a primary Democrat constituency... so one has to wonder why they're so upset about it.

"8. Bush is against the U.S. taking a role in the Israeli Palestinian conflict; then he pushes for a "road map" and a Palestinian State."

Source on the first half, please. Let me guess - pre-9/11? (just a WILD guess there)

"9. Bush is for states right to decide on gay marriage, then he is for changing the constitution."

I'd be for states rights on this issue too, if states could hold their own against activist judges. Apparently, the 10th amendment has devolved to the point that it can't anymore. States, even city mayors just wipe their *** with the laws that the states make. That -does- kinda change things.

"10. Bush first says he'll provide money for first responders (fire, police, emergency), then he doesn't."

Oh, this is such a crock, and has been addressed several times. Talk about propaganda.

"11. Bush first says that 'help is on the way' to the military ... then he cuts benefits"

Another Pravda-like massive lie. Bush has -increased- benefits and pay to the military at LEAST twice. Funny how the U.S. military adores Bush compared to Clinton... must be all those benefit cuts.

"12. Bush-"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. Bush-"I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care."

I'd like a source for the first half of that too.

"13. Bush claims to be in favor of the environment and then secretly starts drilling on Padre Island."

Source? This should be good for a laugh. And I'm guessing Padre Island is the last refuge for like 5,000 indigenous species or something? I mean, we're talking about a crowd that can't handle the horror of drilling in the parts of Alaska that are pretty much a god-forsaken wasteland. They'd scream bloody murder if Bush tried to take a bucket of sand out of the Sahara - he'd be depleting the environment, or something. And don't even get me started on the absurd "arsenic" meme. Face it - environmentalists have lost all credibility with anyone but themselves.

"14. Bush talks about helping education and increases mandates while cutting funding."

Cutting funding? Hahahahaha... I wish!

"15. Bush first says the U.S. won't negotiate with North Korea. Now he will ."

He never said we wouldn't talk to them. We said we wouldn't talk to them one-on-one, that other nations had to be involved. Last I heard, NK had finally agreed to such talks. Am I missing something here, or is this another made up point as usual?

"16. Bush goes to Bob Jones University. Then say's he shouldn't have."

I have no idea about this one. Still, I fail to see how, as written, this could constitute a "flip flop". It sounds more like an acknowledgment of a mistake. That's not the same thing.

"17. Bush said he would demand a U.N. Security Council vote on whether to sanction military action against Iraq. Later Bush announced he would not call for a vote."

I love how you fail to point out that, in the interval, France publically stated that it would veto any such vote, making it rather pointless. He said he wanted to make everyone "show their cards", and the way to do that was with a vote. France made it unnecessary.

"18. Bush said the "mission accomplished" banner was put up by the sailors. Bush later admits it was his advance team."

I never saw such an admission, and in fact I specifically remember sailors going on record and saying it -was- their idea. I never heard a retraction to that.

"19. Bush was for fingerprinting and photographing Mexicans who enter the US. Bush after meeting with Pres. Fox, he's against it."

Unless I'm mistaken, Bush didn't say that fingerprinting and photographing shouldn't ever happen. The exemption only applies to those who have crossed over before and have already been fingerprinted and photographed. While doing it every single time might be a nice-to-have, the tremendous level of additional bureaucracy that probably entails probably would distract from more useful things they could be doing, and God knows there's other things they should be doing. As such, I have no real problem with what actually happened. Now, if your distortion was in any way accurate, I might have been upset about it... but luckily, you guys distort and twist so much that I never even get bothered by your outrageous claims anymore.

Qwinn

I didn't say you were. Just like I didn't call our troll a loser.

Time to play!

Look, if the little trolls would actually engage in a diologue it would be like child's play to refute them.

True sometimes, but not to their face, they have been banned.

Ultimately, it ends in us typing the refutations to ourselves. And where's the fun in that?

I think it's fun to engage in intelligent debate. If they have been kicked, OK, but we would all look better if we refuted them on the merits.

I get your point however. I hope you get mine.

Probably been posted before but seems to make sense even more now.
How to be a Good Democrat
1. You have to believe the AIDS virus is spread by a lack of Federal funding.
2. You have to believe that the same teacher who can't teach 4th graders how to read is somehow qualified to teach those same kids about sex.
3. You have to believe that guns in the hands of law-abiding Americans are more of a threat, than US nuclear weapons technology in the hands of Chinese communists or Arab terrorists.
4. You have to believe that there was no art before Federal funding.
5. You have to believe that global temperatures are less affected by cyclical, documented changes in the earth's climate, and more affected by yuppies driving SUVs.
6. You have to believe that gender roles are artificial but being homosexual is natural.
7. You have to be against capital punishment but support abortion on demand.
8. You have to believe that businesses create oppression and governments create prosperity.
9. You have to believe that hunters don't care about nature, but loony activists who've never been outside of Seattle do.
10. You have to believe that self-esteem is more important than actually doing something to earn it.
11. You have to believe the military, not corrupt politicians, start wars.
12. You have to believe the NRA is bad, because it supports certain parts of the Constitution, while the ACLU is good because it supports certain parts of the
Constitution.
13. You have to believe that taxes are too low, but ATM fees are too high.
14. You have to believe that Margaret Sanger and Gloria Steinem are more important to American history than Thomas Jefferson, General Robert E.Lee or Thomas Edison.
15. You have to believe that standardized tests are racist, but racial quotas and set-asides aren't.
16. You have to believe Hillary Clinton is really a lady.
17. You have to believe that the only reason socialism hasn't worked anywhere it's been tried is because the right people haven't been in charge.
18. You have to believe conservatives telling the truth belong in jail,but a liar and sex offender belongs in the White House.
19. You have to believe that homosexual parades displaying drag,transvestites and bestiality should be constitutionally protected and manger scenes at Christmas
should be illegal.
20. You have to believe that illegal Democratic Party funding by the Chinese is somehow in the best interest of the United States.
21. And finally, you have to believe that this letter is part of a vast right wing conspiracy.

I didn't say you were. Just like I didn't call our troll a loser.

Correct, the person whom I addressed did. You responded to that post. I didn't mean to imply that you said it. I apologise if that impression was given.

hehehe... you know I don't want to put any money in this DUmmy's pocket by going to see his movie tonight!

I get your point however. I hope you get mine.

I do. And I have thought the same thing on many occasions. I just wish the zot patrol would give us longer to toy with them before they are banned.

It would be better to reduce them to a whimpering blob by facts and ideas than to banish them to outer darkness.

ROTFL! The remake of that terribly campy film looks hysterical. (Too bad I don't go to the theater, anymore!)

If you see it, let me know what you thought.

Kudos. You have demonstrated the right way to do it.

It's a waste of time to debate with a leftist. Leftists aren't rational and use pretzel logic, so it's more fun to just make fun of them for being so stupid. If you heard any of Dean or Kerry's remarks yesterday, you'd know what I mean. Here's a sample from Kerry.

The rumored news yesterday that Pakistan had surrounded al-Qaeda No. 2 Ayman al-Zawahri recalls accusations that the administration had "failed" to capture Osama bin Laden, or alternatively, had him and would announce it closer to the election. At this level, terror has become an abstraction serving the perceived realities of politics.

Yeah, what he said!!

Good counter-points...Thank You.

I thought liberals were the Govt. version of the Stepford wives.

This isn't new. I KNOW I read this somewhere on the net. Perhaps the list wasn't this fleshed out but it was the same idea.

The problem is that what men say on the campaign trail does not add up when they get to the office, often times. Circumstances change. Sometimes it is the court's decisions, or acts of war, that cause a sitting president to do what MUST be done... not what he dreamed about while running.

How much of Bush's list of "things to do", got knocked off the page on September 11th? If AQ hadn't attacked us, just imagine the great things GW could have done.

Coop, I certainly wasn't critisizing those more intelligent than me, only those that mock with behavior similar to the opposition. I see YOUR point, though, that it is a waste of time to preach to the choir. I wouldn't bother doing it either. I just think that Protagoras is making a point in suggesting that we try and remain out of the ditch rather than climbing in with the DU for whatever reason.

Have your fun though. I love the smell of burning troll flesh in the morning.

Okay… I'll confess. I was all for sausage and eggs this morning, but changed my mind and went for a bacon and chesse muffin.

A croissant was never considered.

1. Bush Flip Flop (BFF)
2. Bush was opposed to Homeland Security commission prior to 9-11. This was based on the Rudman-Hart Commission. 9-11 changed his mind.
3. (BFF)
4. (BFF)
5. Very subjective term. Define Nation building.
6. There have been deficits, Bush isn't saying "yay deficits" here. Rhetorical crap.
7. Karl Rove wanted the rust belt. Bush pandered. semi flip flop.
8. Again, events change. Not exactly a flip flop.
9. See above. Events changed. People started engaging in civil disobedience on gay marriage. That wasn't occuring in 2000.
10. (BFF)
11. Bush proposed benefit cuts but was convinced by congress not to do so. Would that be an "attempted flip flop?"
12. (BFF)
13. Padre Island is the be all and end all of environmental purity? Ummm, no.
14. (BFF) Unfunded mandates suck.
15. Again. Events change. Sometimes you strike poses. You might take a hard line first, in order to have a winning hand at the bargaining table. Not really a flip flop.
16. How is that a flip flop? In retrospect, he thought he made a mistake. No flip flop there.
17. (bff)
18. I suspect the president wasn't involved in the decision to put up the banner. Being wrong is not the same as flip flopping.
19. Semi Bush flip-flop. Bush is for photographing and fingerprinting Mexicans one time, just not every time they visit. It's a compromise position. Making moderate concessions is not the same as a 180 degree reversal of position.

Many of these examples on this list are dictated by changes in events, political compromise. Not caving completely but by going half-way.

Bush is for "free trade", yet he did the steel tarriffs. Flip flopping would be setting up a protectionist zone and canceling NAFTA and GATT. Pandering to the rust belt on one issue is not a wholesale repudiation of Free Trade exactly. Same thing with that silly Padre Island issue. That is not the end all and be all of protecting the planet. Yes, there are genuine instances of the President absolutely flip flopping. This list though is disingenuous with good examples, half assed examples, as well as complete B.S.

This has been the freeper liberal talking point analysis service. Now signing off.

That was very generous of you to respond to his trite and/or false list.

If the liberal thinker had made a tenth of the effort to support his assertion as you made to respond... well his brain would have probably exploded so no use going there.