McJobs mistake / Sorry, but burger flipping isn't manufacturing

The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette ^ | Saturday, March 13, 2004 | Editorial

[Willie Green]

Since George W. Bush became president the economy has lost 2.8 million factory jobs, but his administration is floating an idea that could dramatically boost manufacturing jobs overnight. It sounds too good to be true. And it is.

The presidential proposition wouldn't actually create any new jobs but would reclassify them and thereby swell job statistics in a declining sector of the economy. Poof! Problem solved.

[GraceCoolidge]

I read an interesting editorial the other day that, unfortunately, I did not see posted here. It described the manner in which the jobs rate is calculated, using what is called (if I remember correctly) the Payroll Survey. It involves contacting businesses to determine if they have added to their payroll. The other means of measurement was called the Household Survey (I think), which involves calling households to verify employment. The latter was not being widely used to determine the employment rate. The point of the article was that the customary means of measuring employment (payroll) generally will omit self-employed individuals and new businesses. According to the author, the Household index results in very different employment figures. If in fact the job statistics being tossed around do not reflect self-employment and start up businesses, then they likely are not an accurate measurement of current employment. I am sure someone can explain this better (and with more detail and accurate recollection) than I have, but that was the gist of the article.

[DoughtyOne]

My wife was a volunteer coordinator for fourteen years. During that time she came in contact with the welfare to work program. I don't know the total specifics of the program, but the idea was to pay the recipient minimum wage for working part time. This was supposed to introduce them into the work community, and obtain them full-time employment. Sadly, the types of candidates my wife dealt with would hardly ever become full time emplyees. They were misfits and unsuited to the professional work environment.

Then I read an article one day that mentioned that these people are considered workers and taken off the welfare rolls. They still get welfare, and yet they were only working 8 to 16 hours per week. None the less, their numbers are reduced from welfare rolls and included in the employment figures.

Take that 5.6% with at least a little grain of salt fella.

[petercooper]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1096632/posts

[GraceCoolidge]

Aha! Thank you... wonder how I missed this.

[RasterMaster]

I will always remember Bush saying on "Cinco de Mayo" that he only wants "gooderer" service jobs in America .....

Invest in a box of Q-tips....the President actually used the words "GOOD OR SERVICE"!

[newgeezer]

> The presidential proposition . . .

Those editors sure are good with them words [sic].

I can only guess you disapprove of the word "proposition" here. If so, why? Webster's #1 definition says it's a synonym for "proposal." That seems to be the intended meaning here.

[TheSpottedOwl]

I just love weasel words. Fast food jobs were traditionally held by students, retirees, and housewifes. They were never intended to support a family, unlike a manufacturing position.

[petercooper]

and how many could that be - thousands? wouldn't make a bit of difference in the u/e rate

[TheSpottedOwl]

Here's my question, though: Doesn't somebody have to buy the burger? Who are the burger-flippers selling burgers to -- other burger-flippers?

In some parts, yes. In some areas, the job base is overwhelmingly service positions paying little more than minimum wage.

[DoughtyOne]

I'm not sure why would would think only thousands of these positions are out there nationwide. My wife had 30 of them at any give time. That's at one location.

Another problem area is the area of retraining. If I'm not mistaken, a person on welfare who particiaptes in a retraining program or a vocational program, they are also considered employed.

These little tricks play havock with those of us who try to keep an eye on things.

It's all a game to them. If the INS seriously screws up, you change the name, reorginze and pretend things are a lot better. In fact they aren't. It's the old shell game. Those on the street get arrested for playing it. Our politicians get fat salaries, great medical benefits and great retirement plans for doing the same thing.

[TheSpottedOwl]

I've dealt with those work to welfare employees. Some of these "ladies" should never be put behind a teller window, or on the phone for customer service. They should be in the back, stocking shelves somewhere, so the rest of us don't have to put up with their lack of social graces.

I remember several years ago, when I had to transfer all my mom's bank accounts into one conservatorship account. I was waited on by a young woman with gang tattooes on her hands and there was a little teardrop by her eye, at a particular financial institution. Not exactly what I want to see handling money. She was also dumb as a sack of dead kittens, with the personality to match.

I left wondering how much the government paid these folks to hire such a person.

Is it me, or is there something wrong with the font. It's been coming up bold, and I didn't do anything...honest!

[Iscool]

One they missed...When the prez puts his name on a piece of paper other than an autograph, guess he must be Manufacturing a Document...

But then that would have to be a blue collar job...Oh well, works for me...

[DoughtyOne]

As for how much they get paid, it's minimum wages or close to it. These folks are not force on the business concern. Some well-meaning idiot may have used poor judgement in the case you mentioned.

Try closing or opening your browser. If that doesn't work, you may need to power down and back up.

There's something going on that has created an anomoly with your system. I've had that happen to me at times.

[petercooper]

yes some politicians are crooks.

but there are always going to be unemployables

[Smartass]

I'm really taken aback. Geeesss, after twenty five years of manufacturing jobs going to Malaysia, Singapore, Taiwan, China and every other nickle an hour slave labor country, people are finally waking up to the fact that we're not producing much. When Americans refuse low pay jobs in place of welfare, what can we expect.

[Yasotay]

While Bush spoke well after 9-11, his speaking skills leave something to be desired. He may have wanted to say "Good or Service" jobs but that is not how it was spoken. Being on Cinco de Mayo did not help .... neither will Q-tips.

[Dave S]

Willie when are you going to get a job and quit bitching about the economy? My personal economy is pretty damn great these days. Yours might be to if you focused on the positive and what you can do rather than on how its impossible for the middle class to make a living these days.

[DoughtyOne]

I agree with that. What you and I should try to do is be reasonable, and I think we are.

The unemployment figures are unquestionably skewed. I first became aware of this when Bill Clinton was showing the best employment records in thirty years. What had he done to achieve that. I began to keep my eye out for things and sure enough, some issues popped up that explained at least part of it. It was bogus then. The figures are bogus today as well.

The largest growth sector in the United States is the service sector. The lowest jobs (salary wise) exist in the service sector. We are losing manufacturing jobs and gaining service sector jobs. That's just a fact of today's working environment.

For the record, as for this being Bush's fault, it's no more his than it was Clinton's. The policies put in place by both parties have encouraged job transfers out of the United States. Tax breaks and profit incentives have made it nearly impossible to compete with other businesses in your field, you don't close plants and move off-shore. Therefore massive migration off-shore has occurred.

Several years ago a guy on this forum pointed me to the statistic chart for employment in the United States. Sure enough, you could take a look at that chart and see where the manufacturing job sector continued to show growth, while plants moved offshore at record paces. There had to be something wrong with that chart or the stats that backed it.

You can't close down manufacturing plant after manufacturing plant, outsource clerical work and certain management services, then tell me there hasn't been a net drain on our nation's employment and manufacturing sectors.

Then there's the problem of workers making far less wages and having far less benefits because they are now working service sector jobs. This impacts families and our society.

How many one worker families do you know of? Is that impacted by federal, state and corporate policy or isn't it? I think the work environment we see today is a direct result of the policies that have been devised and implemented. Frankly I don't want many policies governing the work sector, but then I don't want it to get to the place where mothers and fathers working full time still can't bring in enough money to suppport their families. In that type of environment children would have to pitch in also. Is that what we want? I'm not convinced that's not where we're headed.

Look, I'm not a labor union rep. I've been a conservative all my life. That doesn't mean that I don't think there can be abuses in the employment sector of our economy. In today's economy, I do think there are some pretty devistating policies in play. I think the nation is paying heavily for that.

People who make less money pay less taxes. People who make less salary are more often going to be a drain on society than a healthy contributor to it. I believe there is a lot of downward pressure on the middle class right now.

Moving jobs offshore and flooding the nation with illegals has what effect on wages in the U.S.?

[Larry Lucido]

Sorry, but burger flipping isn't manufacturing

The Build-a-burger family would disagree.

[TheSpottedOwl]

I rebooted, but ended up readjusting my settings. It seems to be okay now. Thanks!

After I posted my reply about bank tellers, I remembered that my oldest daughter papered the community down here with resumes. She and her now husband had just moved out here from CT, and she's been steadily employed; at one point by a stock broker. She's articulate, dresses well, and has good job skills. Nada. Nothing. Then you see what I described. I know for a fact that the government will give "consideration" to employers who hire welfare clients.

I don't want to seem mean spirited, but some of these "clients" have no business waiting on the public.