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[VANITY] Paleocon vs. Neocon: Where do we meet?
10 March 2004 | MegaSilver

Posted on 03/10/2004 6:00:46 PM PST by MegaSilver

Although the 2004 election is barely underway, Conservarives ought to be thinking about how we can redefine the Republican Party once it is over. Say what you will about Bush, McCain, Giuliani, etc., but the Republican Party is our best hope for keeping the nation alive. Thus, it is essential that Conservatives take active roles in helping to shape the Party, because it needs our help, badly.

That said, if Conservatives are to do anything to help the nation, we must come to a consensus on historically dividing issues between Paleoconservatives and Neoconservatives. The purpose of this thread is to generate discussion about the various strains and how we can reconcile them without a huge fight--so people, play nice.

As I see it, the main issues splitting Paleoconservatives and Neoconservatives are issues and foreign policy. Paleoconservatives generally favor a more isolationistic approach; Neoconservatives generally favor an interventionist approach. Similarly, Paleoconservatives are more likely to favor protectionism (and I don't mean that in a bad way; protectionism is a valid P.O.V.), whereas Neoconservatives generally favor free trade agreements.

With that out of the way, let me state where I stand and why. I am somewhere in between. I think a purely isolationistic approach to foreign policy could keep us from seeing a disaster when it is about to arise. The consequences of Britain turning a blind eye to militant Fascism in its infantile stages should teach us a lesson about ignoring the world we live in. That said, I think that we have to be extremely careful not to overreach our boundaries and stretch our military beyond its limits. Our intervention in Vietnam, during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, for example, should remind us of the importance of knowing what we're getting into. We should also be culturally literate enough to be on the lookout for long-term scars that could come back to bite us (like al Qaeda--not that al Qaeda is our fault, but we did underestimate the furor of Wahabiism and turn a blind eye to potential disaster). Thus, my opinion on the war in Iraq is that, while our intelligence may have been faulty, and while our government may have been too unwilling to really brush up on Wahabiism before trying to democratize an Islamic country, now that we're in, we're in, and the Constitutional process is going along much better than one might guess.

On border policy, I'm more Paleoconservative. Until Mexico has shown that it can create a system that takes care of its citizens well enough that they don't need to mooch off our resources (while still pledging loyalty to Mexico), we REALLY need to keep that border sealed tightly and keep quotas.

On trade, I'm not sure where I stand. From what I know about economics (not enough to fill a book, mind you), in purely statistical economic terms, free trade is probably ultimately good for the world economy. However, I think that before we sign free trade agreements, we ought to ask ourselves if the country we'll be trading with is ready to taste first-world capitalism. Again, I'm no expert, but I might question whether we did that effectively with NAFTA, et. al. I also believe that a strong infrastructure (with a flourishing manufacturing sector) is key to preserving our national sovereignty and our economy in times of war.


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: intervention; interventionist; iraq; libertarianizethegop; neocon; neocons; neoconservaive; neoconservatives; paleocon; paleocons; paleoconservaive; paleoconservatives; war
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Thoughts?
1 posted on 03/10/2004 6:00:47 PM PST by MegaSilver
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To: MegaSilver
Neocom is a term that should be phased out; probably paleocom also.
2 posted on 03/10/2004 6:17:27 PM PST by Chi-townChief
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To: MegaSilver
My only problem with Neocons: They are too friendly to illegal immigrants.
3 posted on 03/10/2004 6:19:29 PM PST by Bismarck
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To: Heartbreak of Psoriasis
It's hanging in the air, just waiting to be batted out of the park...
4 posted on 03/10/2004 6:21:44 PM PST by ovrtaxt ( http://www.fairtax.org ** G-d may not be a Republican, but Satan is definitely a Democrat!)
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To: MegaSilver
I find my opinions to be almost exactly like yours.

Have you been stalking me?

5 posted on 03/10/2004 6:23:47 PM PST by ovrtaxt ( http://www.fairtax.org ** G-d may not be a Republican, but Satan is definitely a Democrat!)
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To: MegaSilver
First whats a Neocon and whats Paleocon? I don't think we need those useless terms.

Now for some meat:

Similarly, Paleoconservatives are more likely to favor protectionism (and I don't mean that in a bad way; protectionism is a valid P.O.V.), whereas Neoconservatives generally favor free trade agreements.

Why not use our brains and have both. Thats the way to have a substantive answer to the economy. Its not a for/against argument. Its a how argument.

6 posted on 03/10/2004 6:25:00 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: maui_hawaii
"Why not use our brains and have both. Thats the way to have a substantive answer to the economy. Its not a for/against argument. Its a how argument.

Maybe the two don't need to merge... why not divide into two political parties and completely marginalize and cut off the Leftists?

Leftists have mutated into a psychotic doomsday cult. The Democratic Party is over. However, we need more than a one-party system. By emphasizing the differences between paleo and neo, at least we have two parties that both reject totalitarianism and terrorism.

The Paleocons could be "Republican Democrats", and the Neocons could be "Democratic Republicans."
7 posted on 03/10/2004 6:56:10 PM PST by stradivarius
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To: MegaSilver
Paleocon vs. Neocon: Where do we meet?

If you mean conservatives of several decades ago vs. what passes for conservative today, let's meet at the Constitution; let the neocons walk all the way back. I'm too old to travel that far.

8 posted on 03/10/2004 9:11:57 PM PST by eskimo
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To: MegaSilver
Those two words (Neo - and Paleo - con)were just pejoratives in an old time dispute. In those old days there was plenty of time to worry about the other fellow's moral purity. A luxury we have no time for any more.

Either fight together or bow down to Hillary.
9 posted on 03/11/2004 12:56:55 AM PST by Iris7 (Lies are to deceive the enemy. All you lie to, especially yourself, are your enemies.)
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To: eskimo
The Constitution? A dead letter since Marbury vs. Madison.
10 posted on 03/11/2004 12:58:55 AM PST by Iris7 (Lies are to deceive the enemy. All you lie to, especially yourself, are your enemies.)
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To: maui_hawaii
Why not use our brains and have both. Thats the way to have a substantive answer to the economy. Its not a for/against argument. Its a how argument.

In the future, that may be a viable option. In the meantime, we need to work together to destroy the anticonstitutional lies of the Democratic Party.

11 posted on 03/11/2004 7:39:45 AM PST by MegaSilver
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To: ovrtaxt
I find my opinions to be almost exactly like yours.

Have you been stalking me?

They say great minds think alike. :)

12 posted on 03/11/2004 7:40:31 AM PST by MegaSilver
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To: MegaSilver
I think a good place to start is coming to grips with what being a "conservative" actually means. How can one be for: open borders and giving illegals welfare style benefits paid for by American txpayer $, free trade deals with Communist countries that use slave labor, socialist countries that subsidize their mfrs. to steal market share from American competitors, pushing for fedgov expenditures that send our budget deficits and overall federal debt to constant higher levels, sending our troops in shooting galleries like Iraq to be nothing more than policeman, etc. an still themselves a conservative.....it makes no sense.
13 posted on 03/11/2004 8:26:15 AM PST by american spirit
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To: MegaSilver
Our handling of the economy properly will allow us to do just that.
14 posted on 03/11/2004 10:36:30 AM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: Iris7
The Constitution? A dead letter since Marbury vs. Madison.

Ah yes, the classic dilemma that plagues mankind. Which rules are good and which are influenced by the evil intentions of some. Making a case for good requires one to anchor their opinion in some higher authority than "the law". Perverting the rules simply requires that you refuse to acknowledge they exist or have any bearing on moral constraints as perceived by you.

Thus, societies rise and wane as the division between perceived good and evil becomes more distinct and, in the end, results in a most primitive confrontation.

15 posted on 03/11/2004 12:08:16 PM PST by eskimo
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To: eskimo
"Perverting the rules simply requires that you refuse to acknowledge they exist or have any bearing on moral constraints as perceived by you."

Original sin. Eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (or believe that you have!), and be as gods.

"Thus, societies rise and wane as the division between perceived good and evil becomes more distinct and, in the end, results in a most primitive confrontation."

And in complete alienation. A world of helpless slaves and ignoble masters. Hubris' droll inheritance.

16 posted on 03/13/2004 12:48:02 AM PST by Iris7 (Lies are to deceive the enemy. All you lie to, especially yourself, are your enemies.)
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To: MegaSilver
We are a free people in a free society with a free market and the freedom to make our own decisions (most of the time).

Trying to define "neocon" or "paleocon" is just plain stupid and a waste of time.

Left vs. Right. GOP vs. Dem. This idea vs. that one...those are legitimate debates.

But this subcategory of "cons" is pointless.
17 posted on 03/13/2004 12:52:32 AM PST by Fledermaus (Do I have to resign from the VRWC to join the new RAM: Republican Attack Machine???)
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To: Fledermaus
Putting aside the dispicable "Jewish" connection with "Neo-con" that was put into play by the “paleo-con” aka John Birch conservatives the fact is that Ronald Reagan was the prototype Neo-con. He completely rejected foreign policy isolationism and economic protectionism.
18 posted on 03/13/2004 12:57:55 AM PST by Texasforever (I apologize in advance)
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To: Fledermaus
Trying to define "neocon" or "paleocon" is just plain stupid and a waste of time.

Glad to see I'm not the only one that thinks that

19 posted on 03/13/2004 1:00:04 AM PST by Mo1 (Do you want a president who injects poison into his skull for vanity?)
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To: Iris7
The Constitution? A dead letter since Marbury vs. Madison.

Chief Justice Rehnquist seems to disagree with you. He and the conservative justices have been working quietly to bring the Federal system back within the boundaries prescribed for it by the Framers, one case at a time.

Of course, the liberal justices and Sandra the Swinging Gate O'Connor still occasionally drag the Court off the reservation, as they did so obnoxiously in Lawrence, overturning Bowers v. Hardwick after barely ten years and inventing new "rights" not in evidence either in the Constititution or in nature. But that isn't the Chief Justice's fault.

20 posted on 03/13/2004 1:20:18 AM PST by lentulusgracchus (Et praeterea caeterum censeo, delenda est Carthago. -- M. Porcius Cato)
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