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Krauthammer: "Gibson's Blood Libel"
Washington Post ^ | Mar. 5, 04 | Charles Krauthammer

Posted on 03/04/2004 10:24:16 PM PST by churchillbuff

Edited on 03/05/2004 10:48:45 AM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]

Gibson's Blood Libel

By Charles Krauthammer Friday, March 5, 2004; Page A23

Every people has its story. Every people has the right to its story. And every people has a responsibility for its story. ...[snip]

Christians have their story too: the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. Why is this story different from other stories? Because it is not a family affair of coreligionists. If it were, few people outside the circle of believers would be concerned about it. This particular story involves other people. With the notable exception of a few Romans, these people are Jews. And in the story, they come off rather badly.

Because of that peculiarity, the crucifixion is not just a story; it is a story with its own story -- a history of centuries of relentless, and at times savage, persecution of Jews in Christian lands. This history is what moved Vatican II, in a noble act of theological reflection, to decree in 1965 that the Passion of Christ should henceforth be understood with great care so as to unteach the lesson that had been taught for almost two millennia: that the Jews were Christ killers.

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial
KEYWORDS: bigot; clueless; fool; gibson; krauthammer; liberalchristian; missingthemark; moron; moviereview; passion
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To: af_vet_1981
"I'm not sure what you mean by the "Doctrine of the Song of Moses." "

Revelation 15 : 3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, LORD God Almighty; just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints.

This has not happened yet and Christians who overcome will be singing it.

Deuteronomy 32:

"Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak"

And hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.

2. MY DOCTRINE shall drop as the rain,

My speech shall distil as the dew,

As the small rain upon the tender herb.

And as the showers upon the grass;

3. Because I will publish the name of the LORD:......................................................................................................................................................................................... continues to verse 43,

This is the MY Docrtine you asked about.



"Obviously it is some code word for your church group but you haven't sufficiently identified that group or its doctrinal statement for me to comment further."

CODE WORD, what a strange thing to call the WORD of God. I have told you plainly I am Christian, in the flesh, which make me a sinner, yet "FREE" in the body of Christ, and upon repentence made new again.

You want identification papers, really? You need a "group or its doctrinal statement for me to comment further." Christ is the HEAD of the Church and His words are the doctrinal statement found in the HOLY WORD starting with Genesis 1 to the END. I do not snip and clip.
1,181 posted on 03/07/2004 4:28:29 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Sabertooth
You know your Mid East history!!!
1,182 posted on 03/07/2004 4:41:23 AM PST by dennisw (“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.”)
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To: bondserv; Jean Chauvin; drstevej; RnMomof7; Matchett-PI; the_doc; Frumanchu; nobodysfool; ...
bondserv: "You have accurately presented the Biblical history regarding the execution of Christ from man's perspective."

Ethan: Subtle, but nonetheless incorrect. I presented the Biblical account of the killing of Christ from God's "perspective." The only exception would be St. Ignatius since his writings were not inspired; however, even St. Ignatius is bearing witness to "God's perspective" as his statements are in full accord with the New Testament (and that he received his teaching directly from St. John is no small matter).

Every word of Scripture is the verbally inspired, inerrent word of God, all of it is God-breathed -- the historical record of the New Testament is God's historical record of the events (2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20).

Not a single statement of "bondserv" overturns the uniform and consistent testimony of the inspired New Testament or the witness of the early Christian church: the Jews killed Jesus Christ. "bondserv" recklessly confuses this most serious subject because he attempts to divide Holy Scripture against itself, attributing parts with less divine authority than others.

Moreover, "bondserv" confuses even the Scriptures he uses in a blatant example of eisegsis due to his apparent ignorance between God's effective will and God's permissive will in the events of salvic history. Ignorance is unfortunately equated with "piety" in much of modern American churchianity due to the damaging effects of (much) of dispensationalism and its "escapist" mentality; gladly even many dispensationalist scholars have jettisoned this anti-biblical view of epistemology in recent years.

The eminent Reformed scholar J. Gresham Machen noted almost 80 years ago concerning this phenomena:

"The childlike simplicity of faith is marred sometimes by ignorance, but never by knowledge; it will never be marred--and has never been marred in the lives of the great theologians--by the blessed knowledge of God and the Saviour Jesus Christ which is contained in the Word of God. (J. Gresham Machen, What is Faith? Edinburgh: Banner of Truth Trust, 1925, 1991), p. 96.

In short, God is sovereign in his purposes yet God is not culpable in any sense for the killing of Christ, or for any other crime even when the crime's fulfill His eternal purposes (cf. Joseph being sold into slavery by his brother's). bondserv's lack of serious theological consideration from a Biblical foundation and his humanistic influence on his view of Scripture (even if he is not aware of it) is readily apparent.

"Those who crucified Christ acted in perfect harmony with the freedom of their own sinful natures, and were alone responsible for their sin." (Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination. P&R, 1932), p. 247.

This is in full accordance with the historic testimony of the Christian faith in its most precise summary of Biblical doctrine:

Westminster Confession of Faith (1646) Chapter III.

"Of God's Eternal Decree."

I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

The record of God's inspired Scripture is consistent, clear and conclusive:

"For ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men." (1 Thessalonians 2:14-15; the words penned by St. Paul are the inspired words of God and His historical record).

"The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he [Pilot] had decided to let him go. You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this." (Acts 3:13-15; the words penned by St. Luke are the inspired words of God and His historical record).

"For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God" (John 5:18; the words penned by St. John are the inspired words of God and His historical record).

"When Jesus had finished saying all these things, he said to his disciples, "As you know, the Passover is two days away--and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified." Then the chief priests and the elders of the people assembled in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, and they plotted to arrest Jesus in some sly way and kill him. "But not during the Feast," they said, "or there may be a riot among the people" (Matthew 26:1-5; the words penned by St. Matthew are the inspired words of God and His historical record).

The early testimony of the historic Christian faith is in full accord with God's "perspective" on the events and all the "piety" of Biblically and historically obtuse persons cannot change this fact:

"The Word raised up again His own temple on the third day, when it had been destroyed by the Jews fighting against Christ. The Word, when His flesh was lifted up, after the manner of the brazen serpent in the wilderness, drew all men to Himself for their eternal salvation." (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans. chapter. II, "Christ's True Passion.")

Case closed.

1,183 posted on 03/07/2004 6:00:02 AM PST by EthanNorth
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To: Sabertooth
Hey, interesting catch. The word is sa-tan, or Satan.
1,184 posted on 03/07/2004 6:51:16 AM PST by Mamzelle
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To: Just mythoughts

You want identification papers, really? You need a "group or its doctrinal statement for me to comment further."

No, no. Now that you have published the reference I need not further identification. You must admit, there are some wild and crazy theories out there about the ten lost tribes and identification. I am just being cautious so as to not jump to conclusions prematurely. What I understand from you, thus far, the gist of it is :

Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

I have no problem with this.

1,185 posted on 03/07/2004 7:16:01 AM PST by af_vet_1981
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To: Hamza01
I understand what your're saying about rebuke and not suffering sin. But publicly? It would devastate his father who's an old man. It would break his spirit and kill him. And then Mel would live have to with that. I couldn't do it. I'd shoot myself first.

I understand the culture in asSharq alAwsat is different. I know that Udai and Qusay had a very difficult time rebuking their father. I know that Bashar had a very difficult time rebuking his father. I know that any offspring of Yasser would have a difficult time rebuking him. I know all this.

The Gibson family is not like any of those families. Mel would not lightly rebuke his father for minor issues. He would respect him. The Holocaust Denial and Antisemitism are not minor issues. I find no Biblical excuse for a genuine Christian to hold his peace in the face of a such clear public sin by a parent. He should definitely go to him privately first, one on one. Should that fail, and the sin persist, he should go to him with other members of his Church (but we have a problem there, no ?). When the sin becomes so public we have another problem. In fact, the problem with 4% of the fathers in the Catholic Church of this generation was that too many people held their peace and kept if quite private.

Now Hutton's sin is no where as notorious as that of that minority of fathers, yet who knows if someone had rebuked them earlier what lives might have been spared ? Open rebuke is better than secret love. Open sin should be rebuked, both for the sinner and those who are affected and influenced by such sin. Hutton Gibson has clearly sinned and no one is doing him any favors by not addressing it.

1,186 posted on 03/07/2004 7:30:10 AM PST by af_vet_1981
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To: churchillbuff
I found a tract on the "Jews for Jesus" website, entitled: The Passion, What are the Facts? It addresses the claim of Anti-Semitism in a simple (cartoon-like) way. I printed out a stack of them and will hand them out to any critic I can find.
1,187 posted on 03/07/2004 7:34:06 AM PST by CaraM
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To: af_vet_1981
"When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
For the LORD's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance."

Now lets go back to Jacob and Esau.

These two were to be two nations. The older while in the womb was hated before ever being born. Now that being the case this should bring to the mind that we are not talking about the flesh body, but the SOUL that is placed in that flesh body.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are Mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

We are told when the "Flesh body" was created, however, we are not told WHEN the souls was created, but are told what went on before the "flesh body was created, reason why Esau was hated in the womb, he had a history.


1,188 posted on 03/07/2004 7:41:11 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Hamza01
These posts between you and Sabertooth are very enlightening, well written and interesting.

Right now I'm reading The Life of Jesus Christ, by Giuseppe Ricciotti. The book was written following WW I, and is actually a historical account, as much as a chronicling of that period can rightfully be called one, of the period in which Jesus was born and lived.

So far, it's proving to be an incredible piece of scholarship, and while there really is no mention of Palestinians, per se, the term Palestine is used profusely throughout the text with an actual map titled 'Palestine At The Time Of Christ'.

Quoting directly from the book text, following are how the borders of the map of that time are laid out:

"Palestine is flanked by natural borders, the Mediterranean on the west and the Syrio-Arabian desert on the east. On the north and south her natural boundaries are not so well defined, although in the north a clear enough division is marked by the Lebanon mountain range. This descends parallel to the Mediteranean and is bordered on the interior by the Anti-Lebanon range, from which Mount Hermon rises like a vanguard. The pass between Hermon and Lebanon may be considered the nothrern boundary of Palestine. The southern boundary is represented in general by Idumaea and the desert regions which extend directly below Beersheba and the Dead Sea. These are the two boundaries, northern and southern, frequently referred to in the Old Testament phrase, "from Dan to Beersheba," to denote that part of Palestine inhabited by the Hebrews."

The original book was written in Italian by Mr. Ricciotti, Professor at the University of Rome and published in 1941. Translation was produced by Alba I. Zizzamia of Trinity College, Ocotber 1946.

1,189 posted on 03/07/2004 7:46:48 AM PST by AlbionGirl ("Ha cambiato occhi per la coda.")
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To: Sabertooth
"No, that wasn't your "full intention." You just tossed a grenade at "All," you didn't call anyone out."

Look, if you want to disagree with me that is your full right and perogative. If you want to think I'm a horrible, scurrilous person, go ahead. But do not tell me what *MY* full intention was, or twist it to fit your own convenient misguided analysis. I'm not going to belabor my points with you further because quite frankly you just seem to want to be argumentative and circular.

I will make you this deal, however: in the future, you may assume any posts by me addressed to "all," specifically do not target you, and that, if I do address you personally, I will be most careful to write them at a level a 1st grader would clearly understand.

Fortunately, everyone but you seemed to be able to understand my post in the proper context it was written.
1,190 posted on 03/07/2004 8:07:27 AM PST by The Hound Passer (Sitting home in protest this Nov is a vote for Kerry and Co.)
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To: AlbionGirl
"Palestine is flanked by natural borders, the Mediterranean on the west and the Syrio-Arabian desert on the east. On the north and south her natural boundaries are not so well defined, although in the north a clear enough division is marked by the Lebanon mountain range. This descends parallel to the Mediteranean and is bordered on the interior by the Anti-Lebanon range, from which Mount Hermon rises like a vanguard. The pass between Hermon and Lebanon may be considered the nothrern boundary of Palestine. The southern boundary is represented in general by Idumaea and the desert regions which extend directly below Beersheba and the Dead Sea. These are the two boundaries, northern and southern, frequently referred to in the Old Testament phrase, "from Dan to Beersheba," to denote that part of Palestine inhabited by the Hebrews."

Very interesting historical description. Now that a stage is set based upon this writing, check out Genesis 27: what took place, the 'birthright' had already been sold by Esau to Jacob Genesis 25: 29-34

Genesis 27 describes the "blessing" given Jacob, "Jacob = heel grabber, contender, surplanter had his name changed by our Heavenly Father Genesis 32:24 to Israel which means "God commands, orders or rules". This points us to Christ as King of Kings, Lord of Lords, all to the future.

Jacob had contended with Esau in the womb, and thus got his name Jacob, which is referred to here in reproach, not in eulogy. (Companion Bible side notes)

Now Esau demanded a blessing from his father Isaac, Genesis 27:30-40.

Now somehow down through the ages of copying two words were left out of verse 39. What we have today says

{And Isaac his father answered and said unto him, "Behold, thy dwelling shall be the fatness of the earth, and the dew of heaven from above;}

however, when one does some digging one finds that what that blessing was "Behold, thy dwelling shall be "away from" the fatness of the earth, and the dew of heaven from above;

So in the modern era there should be two nations visable that continue this same contention. Correct?



1,191 posted on 03/07/2004 8:14:00 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Just mythoughts
"So in the modern era there should be two nations visable that continue this same contention. Correct?"

Not educated enough to reply authoritatively. But, if you don't mind, is your assertion based on contending claims between Israel and Palestinians?

Also, thanks for providing me with relevant passages of Scripture to read. I'll try to study Chapter and Verse you've recommended throughout the week. I'm sorry to say, I'm a slow reader.

1,192 posted on 03/07/2004 8:30:26 AM PST by AlbionGirl ("Ha cambiato occhi per la coda.")
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To: AlbionGirl
"Not educated enough to reply authoritatively. But, if you don't mind, is your assertion based on contending claims between Israel and Palestinians?"

Abraham's first son Ishmael Genesis 16, 17, 18, helps explain the Palestinians ..... Who is it that tugs at each other over Israel and the Palestinians?

Take your time, it is like building a building, need the foundation first.

I would recommend starting in Genesis 1. That is the foundation for which all things follow. The first 6 Chapters of Genesis are the foundation of the positive and the negative. If something does not make sense write it down, the WORD flows.

1,193 posted on 03/07/2004 8:42:49 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Salamander
Not weird at all. I've preached such an interpretation. I believe their statement was not unlike this one:
Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, “You know nothing at all! You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.

He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.

It was a statement loaded with more meaning than they intended, bringing them a blessing in spite of themselves.

That's what the cross is all about.

1,194 posted on 03/07/2004 9:00:55 AM PST by watchin
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To: af_vet_1981
Come on bro! First of all, it is not "sin" to deny the Holocaust. It's idiocy-- dangerous idiocy to be sure,but let's get real: Hutton Gibson is NOT advocating a modern day reprise of the final solution. He disagrees with the numbers.

I believe that upwards of 6 million Jews were murdered by the Nazis. But if someone believes it were 2 million or 4 million-- isn't that quite enough to demonstrate the Nazis were evil bastards who deserve to burn in Hell?

And I don't understand why you, a clearly intelligent guy, needs to set up a straw man like the murderous Tikritis to compare to Gibson and his father. The Baathists killed people I knew. You know it's different but you bring it up anyway.

You say there is no biblical excuse for a Christian to hold his peace on public sin. While I'm not a Christian, and I'm not looking for excuses for anybody, I can give you a very old commandment that goes something like this...

HONOR THY FATHER AND THY MOTHER

As a Muslim, here's the way I look at it: Mohammed said that even if your parents are pagans who curse you and prevent you from practicing your faith, do not respond with unkindness. I think it goes like this...

"Speak to them not like the braying of an ass, but Guide them to righteousness, but gently, as Heaven rests beneath the feet of your mother and father"

1,195 posted on 03/07/2004 12:30:29 PM PST by Hamza01
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To: AlbionGirl
Thank you for your kind words. Sabretooth does inded write well, and clearly leaves his heart on the page.

And thank you for the info on the book. I'd love to read it. The description you quote from is an accurate depiction of the Roman province of Palestine.

1,196 posted on 03/07/2004 12:37:55 PM PST by Hamza01
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To: EthanNorth
As you overlook my point let me reiterate.

God being Father, Son and Holy Spirit determined to create man in their image, imbuing the creative powers that can be executed via Free-will. With this free-will came the understanding by the Godhead that Adam would fail. So prior to creating the universe God determined that the Son would be a sacrifice for the sin of Adam and his descendants. (Lamb slain before the foundation of the world).

God also knew that his chosen people (Jews) would be the ones to kill the Son and revealed that truth prophetically to His people. Jesus also repeatedly informed His followers of this eventuality.

Were the Jews culpable, Yes. The New Testament is completely accurate. I have never said otherwise. Did the Father choose to stop them from killing the Son, No. He knew it was for the best, and it was the only way to have love and justice for His children.

I am a believer that we are responsible for our decisions, and the results will be consequences in our life. One decision has eternal significance. Whether we believe that Jesus died and paid the price for our sins and overcame the penalty of death by resurrecting from the dead.

HE HAS RISEN! Jesus Christ, today, extends the gift of salvation to all that would believe on Him.

1,197 posted on 03/07/2004 1:39:54 PM PST by bondserv (Alignment is critical!)
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To: Jean Chauvin; drstevej; RnMomof7; Matchett-PI; the_doc; Frumanchu; nobodysfool
Pinging you to the above post.

Ethan if you could include the rest of your list please.
1,198 posted on 03/07/2004 1:54:12 PM PST by bondserv (Alignment is critical!)
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To: Jean Chauvin; drstevej; RnMomof7; Matchett-PI; the_doc; Frumanchu; nobodysfool; EthanNorth
For clarification:

Man does not have the equal creative powers as God. We are creative beings unlike all other creatures of God.

Let's not confuse animal instinct with mans crative thought. i.e. A chimp fishing termites from a log with a stick.
1,199 posted on 03/07/2004 1:57:59 PM PST by bondserv (Alignment is critical!)
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To: Hamza01
Come on bro! First of all, it is not "sin" to deny the Holocaust.

I am not your bro.

It neither surprises nor shocks me when a Moslem claims Holocast Denial and Antisemitism are not sins. Their definition of sin and spirituality is Koran based.

On the matter of the morality of Holocaust Denial or Antisemitism, I am only speaking to those Gentiles who consider themselves Christians. The rest of the Gentiles are constrained by civil and criminal laws, and whatever their conscience may prevent. There is no law in the United States against Holocaust Denial and Antisemitism as there is against over acts of terror like flying airplanes into our buildings and murdering our citizens.

1,200 posted on 03/07/2004 6:09:42 PM PST by af_vet_1981
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