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Free Congress Foundation ^
| March 2, 2004
| William S. Lind
Posted on 03/02/2004 1:37:42 PM PST by Chapita
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To: discostu
Prediction 2: when US leave and Shiete islamics take over, more terrorism out of Iraq then before when socialist murderer in power...now islamic revolutionary murders in power. Want terrorism gone? Go bomb allie Saudi Arabia, who real sponsor of terror.
Why is it bad when other nation do premptive attack but not when US does so?
To: RussianConservative
Watch how long "democracy" in Iraq live...exactly one election after US leaves The US will not be "leaving" Iraq for a long, long time.
Last I checked, US troops were still in Japan.
To: RussianConservative
Watch how long "democracy" in Iraq live...exactly one election after US leaves The US will not be "leaving" Iraq for a long, long time.
Last I checked, US troops were still in Japan.
To: RussianConservative
Why is it bad when other nation do premptive attack but not when US does so? Who said it was always bad when other nations do pre-emptive attack? My own opinion is that it depends on the circumstances. Ok?
To: RussianConservative
If they target us or our allies we'll go back in.
Sorry Saudi is to powerful in OPEC, bombing them would kill our economy.
If the country is doing a legitimate pre-emptive strike against a real enemy that poses a real threat there's nothing wrong with it.
25
posted on
03/02/2004 2:06:51 PM PST
by
discostu
(but this one has 11)
To: Dr. Frank fan
Gues no one else need ever worry of US...most US military tied to Iraq....of course if US currency keep dropping, Iraq become very expensive...also with what I read of drain on Reserves/Guard of US military, let us see how long deployment of 120k last....not to mention if locals get tired of it.
To: RussianConservative
1) Ever heard of a democracy called Turkey? Also, Kuwait is at least going in the right direction (thanks to U.S. influence), as is Qatr and the UAE. Even the Saudis are implementing some significant democratic reforms. Fact is, as a result of recent history, these countries are no longer claiming that democracy is -not- the best option. They're no longer trying to defend their governmental systems intellectually, only theologically. That's a major accomplishment.
2) Actually a lot of the countries you're referring to aren't Arab, they're Persian (such as Iran and, I believe, Pakistan), and they're suffering the same maladies.
3) I definetly agree that culture does matter. And I agree that it will make things difficult. However, the Japanese culture was no more likely to accept democracy post-WWII than the Iraqis are. Of -all- the countries in the Middle East, Iraq is probably in the best position to transition to something better. What's your option - just write them off as unredeemable? Gee, that doesn't sound like a very Christian response to me...
Qwinn
27
posted on
03/02/2004 2:09:56 PM PST
by
Qwinn
To: Dr. Frank fan
So if Russia build up effort and attack Saudi Arabia for sponsor of terrorism, or Georgia for allowing terrorist to walk through border with Georgian visas....or Israel attack Egypt (who US sell weapons too) or Greece/Bulgaria/Russia attack Turkey (who threaten Greece all time) or India to Pakistan, or China to Taiwan as threat...that all ok? Why for each it may seem as reason of life and death, regardless US opinion...so soon back to geopolitics of 1800s.
To: Dr. Frank fan
I'm not sure I agree with that, unless you count the window-dressing of the term "democracy" as a "remarkable" similarity. Also not sure what the biographical information about (let alone your apparent fixation on) Mr. Frum is supposed to have to do with anything.Clinton's whole rationalization for threatening the use of American military might to force General Cedras--who had rescued Haiti from Aristide the first time--into exile, was that Aristide had been Democratically elected. It is Frum, who has suddenly pushed himself forward as the champion of the idea of our using our military to impose Democracy on other peoples. I have long opposed that idea. See Democracy In The Third World, where I recently pulled together threads of an argument that I have been making for over 40 years.
I am not fixated on Mr. Frum. He is a convenient subject, to illustrate the absurdity of the dangerous ideas that he has chosen to advocate. Frum and Haiti come together in today's news, and I choose to exploit that confluence to make a point: David Frum To Haiti Project.
William Flax
29
posted on
03/02/2004 2:12:30 PM PST
by
Ohioan
To: discostu
If the country is doing a legitimate pre-emptive strike against a real enemy that poses a real threat there's nothing wrong with it.But where is ideology? Hell where is truth to people...so for oil you sacrafice how many more peoples and soldiers of own country who die directly or indirectly of Saudi monies? Guess this War on Terror is 1984 perpetual war....since real enemies to important to attack.
To: RussianConservative
[staying in Iraq for a long time] Gues no one else need ever worry of US...most US military tied to Iraq.... Who said anything about "most"? We don't have "most" of our military in Japan.
Anyway if you really believe that "no one else need ever worry of US" then that's great. Does that mean people will stop complaining and whining about our belligerent unilateralism?
of course if US currency keep dropping, Iraq become very expensive...also with what I read of drain on Reserves/Guard of US military, let us see how long deployment of 120k last....not to mention if locals get tired of it.
Yes, everything is going just horribly.
You can keep telling yourself that, if it's that important for you to believe it.
To: discostu
So we shouldn't try? That's not the American way. And in the end it doesn't really matter if we succeed in making democracy work in the Mid-East, what matters is that we succeed in making terorism fail, functioning democracies are purely icing.1. The Washington/Jefferson foreign policy was based upon treating others with respect. The idea of our imposing our values on others is a repudiation of the American way.
2. Trying to force our values on others is hardly a way to make terrorism fail. It is the surest way to aid Terrorist recruiting.
3. Under Dean Rusk, we created a lot of misery in the Third World, by trying to force "Democracy" on multi-tribal, multi-cultural Third World Nations. It is a cruel, not humane idea. It is also an oxymoron, suggesting that you can impose a system, supposedly based upon the will of a people, on that people from outside.
Instead of such pious nonsense, let us instead put an advocate for imposing Democracy to the test, much nearer to home than the Middle or Near East: David Frum To Haiti Project.
If David can deliver, I will even agree to treat him with respect. If not, maybe we can be done with his pipe dream.
William Flax
32
posted on
03/02/2004 2:20:58 PM PST
by
Ohioan
To: Qwinn
1) Ever heard of a democracy called Turkey? Also, Kuwait is at least going in the right direction (thanks to U.S. influence), as is Qatr and the UAE. Even the Saudis are implementing some significant democratic reforms. Fact is, as a result of recent history, these countries are no longer claiming that democracy is -not- the best option. They're no longer trying to defend their governmental systems intellectually, only theologically. That's a major accomplishment.Ahh Turkey, is that same nation who in 1974 invade and exterminate 100,000 Cypriot Greek? And still occupy land? Is that same one who butcher 58,000 Kurd? Or same one who is second highest member of jihadi killed in Russia, after Arabs of course? Or same one who almost daily threaten Greece and South Cyprus with invasion and extermination?
Kuwait, where to be citizen must prove that birth of great grandfather in Kuwait...where after Gulf War I, even nobles council dismiss for sole monarchy rule...yes liberal Kuwait...or Qatar, who house known Chechin terrorist, who not only on Russian list but also on US & UN lists and Interpol...yes democratic Qatar, home of government owned Al Jazzir.
When has ever any arab islamic government defended self with anything but Koran? Never. Some accomplishment...thinner then desert marage.
2) Actually a lot of the countries you're referring to aren't Arab, they're Persian (such as Iran and, I believe, Pakistan), and they're suffering the same maladies.
Wrong, I refer only to Arab country, there are 22 of various size. Persia and Turkey and Pakistan are other deal, each with own problem...but all to some degree elected government, which no one Arab, with exception of former Lebanon, ever was.
However, the Japanese culture was no more likely to accept democracy post-WWII than the Iraqis are.
Japanese like German have elected government prior to WW2 and free press, both hijacked by militarists/socialists...so after defeat only matter of returning to previous balance. How is Iraq in position for anything but break up and civil war? Unlike all other lands, Iraq 3 equal parts, one not even Arab: Kurd, other two dispise each other: Sunni and Shiete...most other Arab lands totally Sunni or close so easier to rule. If any, it is Libya or Algeria...Lebanon too.
To: Chapita
Alright, let me put my objections this way.
I opposed Clinton's actions in Haiti, not because the U.S. President in power was a Democrat, but because Aristide is a communist sympathizing dictator.
I supported Bush's actions in Iraq, not because the U.S. President in power was a Republican, but because Saddam Hussein was a communist sympathizing dictator.
But -that said-, regardless of what the intentions of Democrats like Clinton are, they will always fail in methodology. A common thread in absolutely every intervention Clinton (or any other Democrat U.S. President since Truman) began is that they would only commit just enough U.S. forces to -lose-. Republicans commit enough forces to win. So although my main reasons for supporting the Iraq intervention while opposing the Haiti intervention are what I said they were, it's also a fact that given the exact same action for the same exact motivations, the Democrats would definetly fail, whereas the Republicans would actually have a shot at succeeding.
Qwinn
34
posted on
03/02/2004 2:22:27 PM PST
by
Qwinn
To: Qwinn
What's your option - just write them off as unredeemable? Gee, that doesn't sound like a very Christian response to me... Christian? Welcome to reality...Christian would be to bring Christ to them, not allow Shari. You must change culture to enact something better (what US not doing) only two ways: fast...along with shooting many right off bat, or slow...but that take much time and energy and monies.
To: Chapita
What a stupid article.
36
posted on
03/02/2004 2:24:15 PM PST
by
r9etb
To: Dr. Frank fan
Never said everything go horrid...but currency external drop...costs go up.
To: RussianConservative
Ideology is for idealogues.
It's not for oil, it's for having a functioning economy. The US economy is based entirely on energy, without energy we're in a situation that would make the Great Depression look like fun. People starve in economic crashes, and they do so in much greater numbers than terrorists ever kill.
It won't be a perpetual war, just look at how things have progessed since 9-11, Al Qaeda hasn't struck outside of it's own backyard in over a year, they started bombing in Saudi (not good for their support there). If we take away their front men we take away their ability to operate.
38
posted on
03/02/2004 2:25:31 PM PST
by
discostu
(but this one has 11)
To: RussianConservative
So if Russia build up effort and attack Saudi Arabia for sponsor of terrorism, or Georgia for allowing terrorist to walk through border with Georgian visas....or Israel attack Egypt (who US sell weapons too) or Greece/Bulgaria/Russia attack Turkey (who threaten Greece all time) or India to Pakistan, or China to Taiwan as threat...that all ok? What I said was that it depends on the circumstances. Do you understand?? I would evaluate all of these things on a case by case basis. I would probably think some of them are ok, and others are not ok. That's different from saying "that all ok". Ok?
For example: Russia certainly has a legitimate grievance against Tbilisi regarding the border/bandits issue. So I might (might) indeed be ok with a Russia "build up effort and attack" against Georgia on those grounds. It would depend on the circumstances involved. (In particular it would depend on how confident I was that a Russian attack against Georgia would lead to a better situation than currently - and frankly I am skeptical.)
On the other hand: a claim by China that Taiwan is a "threat" to China, and an invasion of Taiwan on that basis, would probably be dismissed by me out of hand as absurd.
Some cases are different from other cases. I do not endorse a general rule "all preemptive attacks ok" or "all preemptive attacks not ok". NO GENERAL RULE. Do you understand???
Why for each it may seem as reason of life and death, regardless US opinion...
That may be true. It doesn't change anything I said. If China really thinks invading Taiwan is a matter of life and death for them, I would most likely simply disagree. What is your point?
so soon back to geopolitics of 1800s.
What do you mean "back"? Geopolitics has always been like this.
To: RussianConservative
"Christian would be to bring Christ to them, not allow Shari."
By this, I assume you mean allow sharia law. I guess you haven't been paying much attention to the news lately, but I believe that the Iraqis just made a historic agreement, and it does not include Sharia law. In fact, the only thing it includes that addresses Islam in any way is that it says that Iraq can't enact any laws that -violate- Islam. Which doesn't sound totally unreasonable to me, at least given a rational interpretation of Islam. And since that same agreement just enacted does respect women's rights, and actually even reserves 25% of the seats in the new government to women, it doesn't seem like they're implementing Sharia law to me.
Qwinn
40
posted on
03/02/2004 2:29:06 PM PST
by
Qwinn
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