The Words and Deeds of Christ

Reprinted from SOBRAN’S, November 2000, page 5 ^ | Joseph Sobran

[Dataman]

A lengthy reply was yours, but still unscholarly nonsense. Your reply has too many biased assumptions to be worthy of consideration, the primary one being that men determined which books were allowed into the canon. Men only acknowledged the inspired books and rejected the false writings.

As to whether a book was disputed or not, all of the books were disputed as is evidenced by ancient and modern gnostics as well as assorted scoffers. This is not to give credibility to the scoffer. True, Luther attempted to reject 4 books from his canon but did not have the authority or backing of true scholarship.

It doesn't matter what "most Christians" think any more than it matters what most gnostics or most anti-Christians think. Truth is truth and it does not depend on the perception of any particular group.

The question of pseudepigrapha has been settled centuries ago. The modern attempt to give the books authority is without reasonable, scholarly or factual basis.

[Natural Law]

I won't try to argue faith, only history. If your personal belief system requires that you accept the Bible as the exclusive work of God's hand then I hope it serves you well.

You can't deny the existance of the Council of Nicea or the political influences on canon.

[Elsie]

....for mainly political reasons.

And these would be WHAT?

[Elsie]

Lost books?

Not to worry, for Joseph Smith was lead to the COMPLETED Gospel, by Moroni, in the 1800's.

(It evidently wasn't complete enough, for many OTHER things said by him and his followers have made it into the 'scripture' category: at least that's what the LDS organization claims.)

[Dataman]

I won't try to argue faith, only history

Nice try, but history is on the side of the orthodox, not the gnostics.

Meanwhile, The Passion has another big day.

[Natural Law]

At least we can agree that Christ is the Truth and Light. All other discussion points pale in significance.

[Dataman]

At least we can agree that Christ is the Truth and Light.

Yes indeed. Happy to agree with you on that.

[philosofy123]

Saved from what? What is the big thing about saved and not saved? I know, if a person conducted himself nicely with integrity and love to all, he will be going to heaven...Perhaps there is different heavens, one for Catholics, one for protestants, one for godless, one for Moslems, one for Hindus, one for Jews,....

[T.Smith]

Your post must be rhetorical, because your tone indicates that my explanations would do you no good.

[bondserv]

That interpretation still leaves "I tell you that you are Peter" as an unrelated clause. I can't buy that.

We will know for sure in heaven. There are plenty of passages in scripture that clearly say that Jesus Christ is the only Savior, and that His words are paramount to all other human beings before and after Him. I am quite convinced that Christ would never pass His own authority to Peter so that Peter and His colleagues could contradict Christ's Words. Therefore it is prudent to test all thoughts against the revealed Word of God.

Failures to put God's Word first have resulted in:

1. Augustine allegorizing the Book of Revelation. Allowing the enemy to turn the church from honoring the Word of God as the guide to understanding, to honoring the Traditions of Men. (Augustine set aside the millennial reign of Christ because he mistook Constantine's empire for Christ's reign. Also Augustine allegorizing the book of Revelation, and many Old Testament prophetic Books, into a books of fables which as we know from modern technology the events are totally plausible, as well as the fact that at no other time in history are the prophecies lined up completely for the end time scenario). Rapture, what is that?

2. On the Protestant side we have Martin Luther, who because the Jews were scattered into oblivion during his lifetime, he misrepresented God in regard to the Jews, and had antisemitic sentiments. (there are many passages that state that the Israelis will be regathered into the land in the last days. Viola, 1947 Israel is a nation, 1968 Jerusalem is Israel's capital.)

These failures to regard a straightforward reading of the scripture has resulted in the Crusades, the Inquisition, Antisemitism in the Church, a turning of believers eyes from the expectation of Christ's return at any moment and most importantly an erosion of believers trust in the studying and meditation on God's Word. Satan has been very busy working amongst God's people as the Bible has warned so many times.

[philosofy123]

I learned from Jesus to love every one including my enemies. That was because I was born in a Christian family. Now Jewish kids, a Moslem, Buddhist, Hindu…....If these kids behave the same way, loving each others, and loving their enemies; there should be no reason why they would not go to heaven too. If they learned that good conduct from a novel or from some writing on a stone, they will go to heaven.

The big deal about being baptized, being "born again", taking communion, or any other silly thing in Christianity is not as important as LOVE! You can throw away the bible, the torah, the Koran,…….These books are full of contradiction and occasional nonsensical statements. JUST SIMPLY ONE FREAKING COMMONDAMENT----LOVE EACH OTHER. God did not create our hair to be pissed at us for not covering our hair. God did not create our pines and then get pissed if we did not cut a piece of it out. They found stone tablets in Iraq that was dated 1700 years before the torah that talked about the flood. This Noah story never made sense, and so are many stories. I guess the religious leaders should get together one day and agree on one thing, hey guys, let us reduce these messy, complicated, inconsistent books to one word: LOVE.

[Dataman]

Tell me, why should I take anyone like you seriously when he can't even use the built in spell checker? If you believe so much in love, why do you call Christians idiots on other threads? (If you deny you called Christians idiots, I will post the link).

[philosofy123]

If you have so much love for me why can't you forgive my spelling mistakes?

[Dataman]

If you have so much love for me why can't you forgive my spelling mistakes?

No problem. Now go away and quit trying to cause trouble.

[rdb3]

Pardon me if I am being thick or obtuse, but, is he saying at the end that if I am not a Catholic I cannot be saved? That makes me scowl.

This does appear to be what he is saying. I've come across some Catholics who do not subscribe to that, however.

Salvation is not through any church. It is through faith in the finished work of the Lamb and being regenerated. Then one becomes a member of the true Body of Christ which is His church. And that church is not made with the hands of men.

[AnalogReigns]

I have been told by Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans...that their church is "The One True Church."

Knowlegeable Protestants (which of course include Baptists, Presbyterians, and Lutherans, not to mention Episcopaleans, Methodists,Reformed churches and many others (though not Mormon...sorry)) know that historically since the Reformation (1520s) Protestants have acknowleged an "invisible church" meaning the body of believers, known only by God, who are truly followers of Christ--from various denominations. That is why Protestants can recite the old creeds "I believe in...the holy catholic church" ("catholic" just meaning "universal") honestly, since we understand it encompasses God's real church, not a particular visible body or organization.

Personally I think the Eastern Orthodox churches have just as much claim as the Roman church to being the oldest...so I've never understood Roman chauvinism in claiming to be "The One True Church." Seems like so much medieval hokus-pokus to me...though I know people sincerely believe it.