[alpowolf]

Anybody have real evidence to refute this article?

[cripplecreek]

We call them mass graves.

[Lunatic Fringe]

I suppose the absense of the people shredder makes the perception of Saddam as being a monster LESS compelling to these folks?

See... he wasn't such a bad guy after all!

[Numbers Guy]

Let me get this straight. So if there's no proof that Saddam's minions fed people into shredder, but rather merely tortured them, tore off their limbs, raped their wives in front of them, and murdered them in numerous other brutal ways, that means Saddam's regime should still be in power?

[roses of sharon]

An ABC reporter, and a ex CIA agent, did a report from the Sons palaces, standing next to a shredder.

I recall it, and the CIA guy's face was familiar, (he wrote a book), can't think of a name now.

But no matter, Saddam and Sons are innocent, Bush is evil, and dangerous.

The left's values at work again.

[sausageseller]

If I lived underground my whole life would that mean the sun never existed...

We don't have Hitlers body therefore he never existed...

I could go on and on for the dishonest writer, yet it would make no difference to him!

[Gefreiter]

Don't waste your time. People like this writer will
NEVER be convinced that any war can be a positive force. They do not draw conclusions from evidence but hold certain viewpoints, and twist and turn information until they feel their views are "prooved".

He's hung up on whether or not there was a shredder, but there's no question about mass graves. Same idea as the people who fret about whether the US/UK is fighting according to the accepted traditions of battlefield conduct, yet not comment on armed men using a mosque as a fortification.

On any given issue, the US is always wrong and the arabs, Chinese, North Koreans, or other dictatorial regime are always right. Evidence does not apply.

[American_Centurion]

Whatever.

I have personally seen video of Saddam's "police" dropping tied men from the roof of a police station and letting them die slowly from their injuries, if they weren't lucky enough to land on their head.

So there wasn't a shredder, that must mean Saddam's regime was kind to his people.

[Conspiracy Guy]

Does anyone have real evidence to back this story?

CG

[davisfh]

"...the evidence suggests it never existed"

I've always know that there is good in everyone and you've just proven it.

[Shooter 2.5]

An Iraqi who worked as a doctor in the hospital attached to Abu Ghraib prison tells me there was no shredding machine in the prison. The Iraqi, who wishes to remain anonymous, describes the prison as "horrific". Part of his job was to attend to those who had been executed. Did he ever attend to, or hear of, prisoners who had been shredded? "No." Did any of the other doctors at Abu Ghraib speak of a shredding machine used to execute prisoners? "No, never. As far as I know [hanging] was the only form of execution used there."

How exactly could a doctor attend a patient who was passed through a shredder?

[alpowolf]

Hmmm...nothing so far.

I think this is important, because truth is important. I know that's a bit out of fashion with our "ends justifies the means" pro-Bush folks. But if the case for war was so complete and compelling, why was there a need for this bullshit propaganda story?

[cardinal4]

Anybody have real evidence to refute this article?

What do you need to refute? In a post 9/11 world, the planet is too small for the likes of Saddam. He didnt comply with orders from the civilized community, and he got his ass kicked. He was a monster on a par with Stalin and Hitler, who cares whats found and what is isnt? I saw the videos of trussed up people being tossed of roofs alive. Videos have been found with Qusay and his rape victims. Its amazing people still seek justification for our making the world a better place..

[DustyMoment]

The flaw in the story rests with the logic. The writer attempts to link the lack of WMD with the lack of a shredder. If one doesn't exist, then the other can't. Therefore, Bush/Blair made it all up to generate public support for the war.

The Guardian isn't noted for being one of the most objective sources. I would take this article with a bag of salt.

[secretagent]

Apparently very little evidence of a shredder. Always good to check out atrocity stories. Fabrications abound.

But that doesn't affect the debate on the rightness of the Iraq invasion, at least for me.

[Killing Time]

Anne Clwyd replies in a letter published in todays Grauniad:

Brendan O'Neill (Comment, February 25) believes that I made "uncorroborated and quite amazing claims" about the existence of a shredding machine used as a method of execution in Saddam Hussein's prisons.
Brendan O'Neill was told by my office, but chose not to include in his article, the following information. In his statement, the witness who said that people were killed by the shredder was very specific: he named individuals who he said were killed in the shredder and the individuals who he said supervised the execution by shredder; he stated where the shredder was located and the month and year when the executions took place. The witness was closely questioned by Indict researchers and was described by them as being "unshakeable". He said he is also prepared to testify in court about the incident.

This witness statement was taken by Indict, the organisation which I chair. Indict has collected evidence to be used in the prosecution of senior members of the former Iraqi regime for war crimes and crimes against humanity. Indict researchers worked to the high standards of admission of evidence of the English and Welsh courts, under the guidance of Queen's counsel. Extensive enquiries were always made to corroborate information provided in witness statements.

Indict, for obvious reasons, took witness statements on the basis of confidentiality. All witnesses who signed their statements did so, however, in the full knowledge that they could be liable to legal prosecution if they had stated anything they knew to be false or did not believe was true.

As the Iraqi doctor who worked in the Abu Ghraib prison hospital, and quoted by Brendan O'Neill, himself stated the prison was horrific and that Saddam's regime was "very, very terrible, one of the worst regimes ever". The extent of the regime's depravity is not and can never be in question, as many Iraqis know from personal experience, and will soon attest to, when leading members of the regime are brought to justice.
Ann Clwyd MP
Prime minister's special envoy on human rights in Iraq

---

You stateside folks may not be familiar with the personalities involved. O'Neill is a member of an ex-Trotskyite cult once known as the Revolutionary Communist Party which has galloped, if not exactly to the right then to a position of apologist for the likes of Saddam and Milosvic and a preoccupation with modern society's aversion to risk. They are unduly influential in the Brit media, hence the original publication of this item in the Spectator, house journal of mainstream conservatism over here. Some of you might also find their website interesting: http://www.spiked-online.com/.

Anne Clywd is a left wing Labour MP whose views on most things would be anathema to many on here but who has been a steadfast advocate for the Iraqi people and supporter of regime change.

[Mr. Mojo]

Ah, the Guardian. ....The same paper that calls Muslims who hack Christian women and children to death with machetes "warriors."

[Pagey]

Lets see now,In Iraq we found:
1.)Jail cells smaller than the size of my desk at work
2.)Videos of people being shot,their feet being unmercifully whipped and tossed off buildings while blindfolded
3.)Jails full of children locked up only because their parents spoke against the regime of S.H.
4.)Military Jets buried in the Desert
5.)A vast section of Iraqi Marshland intentionally drained of it's water
6.)S.H. in a hole in the ground

To even ponder that S.H or his 2 (thankfully dead) son's weren't capable of using this paper shredder for human disposal, is simply preposterous. We've seen for years the video of him reading names of alleged traitors being escorted out of that auditorium to their deaths, with Tariq Aziz sitting in the first row. This writer of this article seriously needs to go stand in the corner and shake themselves to clear out their foggy thinking.