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1 posted on 02/21/2004 2:16:45 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Then again, sometimes Jews take it a bit far. See King David and his 700 wives! :>
2 posted on 02/21/2004 2:18:32 PM PST by KantianBurke (Principles, not blind loyalty)
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To: calcowgirl; Howlin; onyx; NormsRevenge; Grampa Dave; SierraWasp; tubebender; RonDog; backhoe; ...
A strong piece!

E-mail to your friends!

Arnold has done us some good by his actions !

More needs to be done!

4 posted on 02/21/2004 2:21:58 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach (The terrorists and their supporters declared war on the United States - and war is what they got!!!!)
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To: jimtorr
bump
5 posted on 02/21/2004 2:25:08 PM PST by rontorr (It's just my opinion, but I am RIGHT!)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
I really enjoyed that article. Well written.
7 posted on 02/21/2004 2:43:36 PM PST by Integrityrocks
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Excellent post, fascinating piece. You have made my day, I actually feel like I know a lot more about this whole subject than I did yesterday. And I always aim to "learn something new every day."

I had no idea, none at all, that homosexuality was so wide spread and so accepted, historically. I had never thought about the ancient pagan religions and their lustful sexuality in this way, even though I've seen the urns.

On a somewhat more elevated note, I'd never really thought about HOW the God of the bible differs from Zeus, and that whole pagan lot, always knowing just THAT He does.

Prager is really good, and a very nice writer too.

Thanks Ernest!
10 posted on 02/21/2004 2:47:14 PM PST by jocon307 (The dems don't get it, the American people do.)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Very timely.
15 posted on 02/21/2004 3:02:23 PM PST by MEG33 (John Kerry's been AWOL for two decades on issues of National Security!)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
The Torah's prohibition of non-marital sex quite simply made the creation of Western civilization possible.

Adultery in the Old Testament is specifically the act of a married woman sleeping with a man not her husband. Such an act deprives the woman's husband the right to know that his children are 'his'.

Other forms of non-marital sex are strongly cautioned against, and in some cases (e.g. having sex with a virgin) may result in civil actions (compelled marriage if the girl's father demands), but aside from adultery there are only a few other behaviors to which the term prohibition (forbidding, with punishment for those who disobey) would apply, and most of those aren't applicable to most people (e.g. for the daughter of a priest to become a harlot is a capital offense).

To be sure, the Old Testament strongly recommends against other forms of non-marital sex, among other things on the basis that such things will distract energies that a man should be spending forming his own family, but I see nothing to suggest that the term "prohibition" should be applied to all non-marital forms of sexual conduct (or even, for that matter, to female homosexual conduct).

16 posted on 02/21/2004 3:06:06 PM PST by supercat (Why is it that the more "gun safety" laws are passed, the less safe my guns seem?)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach; All
a powerful piece! Especially that last paragraph which really brings the charge home.

To this , I would humbly add that the virtue of a modern-day, western society rests overwhelmingly with it's women. Setting aside crimes like rape, we can only be as licentious as the women whom we direct our attentions towards allow us to be.

Juan
(yes, I really should have been born in the 19th century... and wistfully wish it were so...)
18 posted on 02/21/2004 3:09:24 PM PST by CGVet58 (God has granted us liberty, and we owe Him courage in return)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Before the Bible, the world divided sexuality between penetrator (active partner) and penetrated (passive partner).

Bears repeating.

I had already reached this conclusion independently from my reading of ancient historians (unfortunately in translation), but it's nice to see it confirmed.

25 posted on 02/21/2004 3:57:28 PM PST by Restorer
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Finally, the Bible adds a unique threat to the Jews if they engage in homosexuality and the other offenses of the Canaanites: “You will be vomited out of the land” just as the non-Jews who practise these things were vomited out of the land. Again, as Greenberg notes, this threat “suggests that the offenses were considered serious indeed.”

World Pride 2005 to be held in Jerusalem

26 posted on 02/21/2004 4:09:44 PM PST by SauronOfMordor (No anchovies!)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
This is amazing. Thank you for posting it.

I could not put my finger on why accepting homosexuality as equal to heterosexuality could change civilization. My 12-year-old son was asking me about it. This article is a great explanation, but NOT meant for him. I guess I shall have to figure out how to sum all this up for a 12-year-old now.

I wonder what Dennis would say about how homosexuals should live today. Especially those who are religious. I know that some choose to put aside their orientations and live hetero, married lives. What does he say about the others? I am guessing that he would say they should be tolerated as a non-mainstream way of life and that we should always keep our focus on married love and bringing up the next generation. Hard to do that in this day of no passing judgement. It seems to slide either towards "Queer Eye" (glorification) or "queerbaiting" (prejudice). Hard to have it right down the middle, but I suppose right down the middle would be what's best for civilization.

Maybe gays need to accept their rightful places as extras in the play of Western Civ, enjoy their roles, and forget about trying out for the lead roles.

29 posted on 02/21/2004 4:49:31 PM PST by Yaelle
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
That was an excellent source for things rarely explained in detail.

Myself, I'd rather stick to strictly no reference to either religion or the Bible. In my experience with homosexuals, I find that no matter what they say, none are so close to their faith that they will abandon their "orientation" just because their faith bans it.

So using the Bible as authority communicates about as well as pinching your lips together when you talk. My opinion, here's as many good arguments based on simple observation of material reality.

30 posted on 02/21/2004 4:58:34 PM PST by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
"Finally, the Bible adds a unique threat to the Jews if they engage in homosexuality and the other offenses of the Canaanites: “You will be vomited out of the land”

Lost in all the pseudo-intellectual garbage of this piece is the REAL reason Judaism rejects homosexuality (as stated above): it was a practice of the idolatrous nations, specifically Canaan, that Jews were instructed by G-d to avoid. Jews have always had a hard time keeping to G-d's strict rules, and have frequently had portions of the community slide into idolatry (hence the whole civil war against the Hellenized Jews which is the story of Chanukah).

Nowhere does G-d say that homosexuals, as people, are evil. Nowhere is female homosexuality addressed. Obviously, there is no problem with those of the homosexual persuasion, so it is utterly irrelevant whether homosexual drives are genetic, chosen, cultural, or whatnot. The problem is only one of idolatry, and since male homosexuality was part of the idol worship in the land, it was prohibited. This is no different from the enactment of the kosher laws (which prohibited fraternization with idolators as well as eating of their sacrifices) or the prohibition on the shaving of one's beard.

In fact, ALL the prohibitions in that section of Leviticus are for the same reason. Homophobes like to take the quote out of context and claim that G-d (or Jews) hates gays, but that just isn't so (at least from the Jewish perspective) -- especially since G-d is speaking ONLY to the Jews in Leviticus.

This means that a good, practicing Jewish man is not permitted to engage in homosexual acts, but a Jewish woman can still be a lesbian (the Talmud frowns upon it, and calls it "licentiousness", but it is not prohibited by G-d). Likewise, a non-Jewish man can be a homosexual, and G-d makes no mention of it being wrong.

Christian interpretation of the passages may be different; frankly, I don't much care about Christian interpretations of scriptures that they stole from us. Like it or not, most of Mr. Prager's statements are irrelevant to the central topic, not to mention unsupported by the majority of rabbinic opinions. I strongly disapprove of any attempts at making Judaism appear homophobic when it is not.

Oy. Sorry for the rant, but I have strong feelings on this issue.

31 posted on 02/21/2004 5:05:12 PM PST by MrsKentTrappedInLiberalSeattle (Shema Yisrael, Ad-nai El-heinu, Ad-nai Ehad.)
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To: PatrickHenry; Alamo-Girl; betty boop
Pagansim is not what it used to be. Once it claimed man was created by the gods having sex. Now, it claims it was monkeys that done it. :-)
37 posted on 02/21/2004 6:00:31 PM PST by Tribune7 (Vote Toomey April 27)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Sodom and Gomorrah
Short video

Sodom and Gomorrah
45 Minute Video

www.arkdiscovery.com

Gen 19:15   And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters who are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.
Gen 19:16   And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters: the LORD being merciful to him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.
Gen 19:17   And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life: look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain: escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.
Gen 19:24   Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
Gen 19:25   And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
Gen 19:26   But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

Are our eyes so blind we cannot see our hearts so closed we cannot know our wisdom so dumbed down we cannot understand ?

Gods word has come to truth oh lo these many years and yet we still defy the knowledge of what is to come if we do not follow that path of the straight and narrow !


38 posted on 02/21/2004 6:01:11 PM PST by ATOMIC_PUNK (Jhn 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.)
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To: hellinahandcart
Read later...
41 posted on 02/21/2004 6:11:39 PM PST by hellinahandcart
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Societies that did not place boundaries around sexuality were stymied in their development.

Someone should tell this to Mark Morford.
43 posted on 02/21/2004 6:26:35 PM PST by Democratshavenobrains
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Excellent article. Monogamy was probably one of Judaism's main contributions to Western civilization, and probably one of the least recognized.

When the Church took this and translated it to Europe, it totally transformed social and sexual relationships and was, essentially, the social framework for individual freedom. This includes that of women, who were no longer cattle but could not be married unless they gave their free consent. Granted, there were many times when this was overlooked in practice, but the idea was there.

I think few people realize what is at stake in the rejection of marriage.
45 posted on 02/21/2004 6:37:48 PM PST by livius
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To: djreece
marking
46 posted on 02/21/2004 6:41:32 PM PST by djreece
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
That Judy chick from Leave It To Beaver was a colossal pain in the backside
63 posted on 02/21/2004 8:15:03 PM PST by Brainhose (THINK OF THE KITTENS!)
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