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To: Paul Atreides
However, it is more than a little ironic that the people, who had a big problem with one particular line in the film, are trying to take the "sins" of the father and apply them to the son.

I don't see the connection.

More to the point, Jewish (and by extension, Christian) theology teaches that G-D will visit the sins of the father upon the off-spring...I'm not exactly sure of the quotation but I believe it is to the "third generation". The meaning of the verse, of course, is not to punish children for the sins of the father, but to portray how a father's evil influence will affect his children and grandchildren.

Please note that I am (so far) speaking generally, not specifically about the elder Gibson or his son.

It is even more ironic that they are up in the air about Mel's father denying the Holocaust when they are trying to deny that some, not all, Jews played a part in the Crucifixion.

I didn't see that denial. What I saw was that they were saying the movie "blames the Jews" for the crucifixion (sp?).

Be that as it may, are you under the mistaken impression that Jews believe in any part of the so-called, "New Testament"?

32 posted on 02/20/2004 8:13:40 PM PST by h.a. cherev
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To: h.a. cherev
Personally as a convert to Judaism (previously Catholic) I find claims of Deicide against Jews to be shallow and born either of hate or ignorance; such claims definitely can not come from Christians that believe in the dogma that is Christ:

If you believe that the death of Christ was for the purpose of atonement for mankind (if not, you are hardly a Christian) then YOU MUST believe that whatever group (be they Jewish; Roman; or just one, two, a handful, or a mob of unidentifiable people) that was "responsible" for the act of crucifixion, was serving G-d's purpose.

Therefore, as His tool, they were "chosen" to fulfill the greatest act of Christian dogma enabling the ultimate resurrection.

In other words, SOMEBODY had to betray Jesus for the desired outcome to occur. Even those closest to Jesus were foretold to fail before him and with the exception of Judas, the ultimate pawn in G-d's plan, no individual disciple is held accountable for the resulting downfall.
My conclusions:

(a) The Jewish people have suffered the greatest attack against any people for G-d's decision to create this place for them in Christian history; Perhaps the hardships we have survuived were given to us precisely because G-d knew that we as a people were capable of surviving them and still maintain our praise of G-d.

(b) I perceive any attacks or accusations against Jews for deicide are due to the aforementioned ignorance or less-than-veiled antisemitism for failure to accept Jesus as an embodiment of the G-d that we all believe in.

I look forward for an opportunity to view this film, and accept that it is a dark and difficult time in Jewish history with respect to our relationship with Christians. LETS DEAL WITH IT - NOT DENY IT.

From an optimistic perspective this film could very well open a channel of communication that allows Jewish fears and Christian attitudes to be resolved in accordance with my previous thoughts.
49 posted on 02/20/2004 9:38:22 PM PST by Optimist (I think I'm beginning to see a pattern here.)
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To: h.a. cherev
I don't see the connection.

The connection is, that there are some, who are demanding that Mel remove the line in the movie in which one of the Jews egging on the Crucifixion says "let the sins be on our heads and on the heads of our children." From this, they are trying to say that this is stating that every single Jew from that point on is cursed. Now, here is the connection: Mel's father believes a certain way. So far, I have heard, or read, nothing to lead me to believe that Mel holds his father's views. However, the media is trying to take his father's statements and apply them to Mel. In other words, they are trying to say that something that a father believes is automatically believed by the son. Does that mean that, if one of Mel's kids tries to make a movie, they are going to say "are anti-semitic, like your grandfather?".

I didn't see that denial.

From the articles I have read, there seems to be an effort, on the parts of those protesting this film, to say that there should not be any part in it, showing any Jewish participation in the Crucifixion.

are you under the mistaken impression that Jews believe in any part of the so-called, "New Testament"?

Please clarify this question, as I have not stated anything about whether Jews believe in the New Testament.

74 posted on 02/21/2004 7:52:25 AM PST by Paul Atreides (Is it really so difficult to post the entire article?)
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